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Bawabus
21st Dec 2009, 22:14
So I read the page this month's Game Informer about Dog Days. Here's a list of things I thought sounded kind of cool.

The camera: the presentation sounded very intriguing; little touches like sporadic zooms in and out, and camera sway were mentioned (Imma have to see it in motion 'cuz it don't sound too good on paper).

The filters: It's going to look very grainy; the screens reminded me of something from Silent Hill--in a good way. The environment that I saw in the screenshots look like they had crazy amounts of detail put into them, and the game, in general, seemed to look much better than what has been shown in the press release screens. (MUCH better)
That one problem--I forget who it was that mentioned it--about the characters seeming out of place in the environment didn't look like it was a problem in these screens. Everything look more natural.

Damage indicator: the previewer painted this aspect in a bad light, but, in concept and my own imagination, it sounded pretty neat. The direction you're getting shot from is indicated by visual hiccups and glitches one might associate with malfunctioning equipment. Broken pixels will start to accumulate in the area of the screen where you're being shot at from. It could be cool.

Nothing else was really played up or talked about in serious depth (unless I'm forgetting something). They mentioned the "down but not dead" system, which really isn't a system. Once you take so much damage you fall down and can crawl away or continue fighting (not sure if you can do both at the same time). It didn't sound like anything game changing.

Other than that, they mentioned that the game takes place over the course of 48 hours in Shanghai and Lynch is the main character--stuff we already know.

Hope I've given some useful info.

GrievousOdyssey
21st Dec 2009, 22:37
That one problem--I forget who it was that mentioned it--about the characters seeming out of place in the environment didn't look like it was a problem in these screens. Everything look more natural.

Yeah i don't excactly remember who said it too other than it was a Marvelous person who roams all day long in this forum and never shuts up ...

Anywya ...

Makes sense that the damage you take looks like 'broken pixel' , after all if it is to be delivered in a youtube style ...

The grainy filter is something that is a bit 'old' these days ... meaning most people will instantly criticize it as soon as they see it , we'll just have to see how IO gets away with it ...

They talked about the downed but not dead mechanic , but did they precised if it was to replace the 'adrenaline and last thought' system ? ... because i can't see both of them working at the same time , so i assume they took out the last thought audio flashback system , or it plays whenever you're downed ... i don't know ...

I'm mostly eager to see how would IO handle this unique setting : two days in one city ...
Most of their games took place at least during half a year around the world , Hitman Contracts was the only exception , it took place only during one night , but the bulk of the game was made of flashbacks ...
So while the story of Dog Days takes place only during two days and nights in a city , maybe we'll have a couple of flashback missions to broaden a bit the scope of the storyline ? ...

So many questions ...

Give us the game already ...

Bawabus
21st Dec 2009, 23:56
but did they precised if it was to replace the 'adrenaline and last thought' system ?

No, the article was bland in its description of just about everything but the visual effects. The tone of the article seemed disinterested, like its subject was completely banal.

GrievousOdyssey
22nd Dec 2009, 00:01
They better apologize and cry all over the floor for this insult when Dog Days becomes Game Of The Year ...

One of Seven
22nd Dec 2009, 02:28
That GI guy was focused on whining about his life experience with camera glitches, than actually telling you stuff about the game.

UhUh
22nd Dec 2009, 08:27
The grainy filter is something that is a bit 'old' these days ... meaning most people will instantly criticize it as soon as they see it , we'll just have to see how IO gets away with it ...


This is very true.
Everytime the old-movie filter comes out the reactions are always "been there done that" (just take Wet as an exemple).
Then again for DogDays seems like is something more then just extectetics, and since they are putting some attention to it, I sincerely hope that it will be more then a "just one trick pony".

Anyway, by the time it comes out, it could be a fresh thing again; I don't know, it could both work perfectly or being the final nail on its coffin, but considering the game's luck it's going to be the second, probably. :(

GrievousOdyssey
22nd Dec 2009, 11:14
What are you so miserable about ? ...

The world can damn the game to hell but that won't stop US from playing the masterpiece ...

Besides , all this old tradition of "only good games can become a franchises and have sequels" is ignored now ... what we should be worry about is whether IO will be threaten to close its doors or not ...
*takes a sad look over Pandemic Studio's mausoleum* ...

One of Seven
22nd Dec 2009, 12:36
What are you so miserable about ? ...

The world can damn the game to hell but that won't stop US from playing the masterpiece ...

Besides , all this old tradition of "only good games can become a franchises and have sequels" is ignored now ... what we should be worry about is whether IO will be threaten to close its doors or not ...
*takes a sad look over Pandemic Studio's mausoleum* ...

Dude I loved Pandemics games, even though they got a bad rep. That was a sad day hearing them close their doors. I even got to play with the devs on LOTR: Conquest, it was pretty badass.

GrievousOdyssey
22nd Dec 2009, 13:30
The closure of Pandemic Studios proved that no matter how 'big' they are no studio is safe from the economic crisis ... it literally came out of nowhere ...

I mean Free Radicals was one thing , but Pandemic ... creators of Star Wars Battlefront and Destroy All Humans! ... sigh , what a shame ...

Perhaps since they're located in the safe haven that is Copenhagen , IO Interactive has got nothing to worry about ...
I don't know ...

YoungZer0
22nd Dec 2009, 15:34
The closure of Pandemic Studios proved that no matter how 'big' they are no studio is safe from the economic crisis ... it literally came out of nowhere ...

I mean Free Radicals was one thing , but Pandemic ... creators of Star Wars Battlefront and Destroy All Humans! ... sigh , what a shame ...

Perhaps since they're located in the safe haven that is Copenhagen , IO Interactive has got nothing to worry about ...
I don't know ...

They also made Mercenaries 2 which sucked ass.
I think IO Interactive is far from being closed, after all they have 3 projects on going.

Bawabus
22nd Dec 2009, 15:48
Pandemic never improved; all their games were marred by the exact same problems. I lament their job loss and hope that the people affected find somewhere new to support their families and themselves, but dudes didn't make great games. The sad part was that they were close to making great games; they just needed to learn from their mistakes.

GrievousOdyssey
22nd Dec 2009, 17:32
They also made Mercenaries 2 which sucked ass.
I think IO Interactive is far from being closed, after all they have 3 projects on going.

And Pandemic also had 3 projects going on and not to mention The Saboteur that was barely released and look what happened ...

Either IO is lucky or their ties with Eidos is a lot stronger than we could imagine ...

By the way was World in Flames really that bad ? ...
Good thing i skipped it then , never was a real fan of Mercenaries to begin with ...


Pandemic never improved; all their games were marred by the exact same problems. I lament their job loss and hope that the people affected find somewhere new to support their families and themselves, but dudes didn't make great games. The sad part was that they were close to making great games; they just needed to learn from their mistakes.

Did Infinity Ward ever improved their games ? ...
They made four Call of Duty , and that's it , the last one isn't so good from all the complaints that i see , yet somehow the reviews shows a universal acclaim and the sales charts goes higher than the roof ...
Why is it that Pandemic doesn't get the same praises Infinity Ward gets ? ...
Pandemic started the Battlefront , Destroy All Humans! and Mercenaries franchise , all three of them were Good franchises , ok they did bad sequels , but at least they did tried to bring something new everytime , didn't they ? ...
Shouldn't this merit be better valued than a company who just keep remaking the same game (albeit with a shinier graphic) ? ...

Even in terms of sales IO doesn't perform so well either , so i think it's either a miracle they're still standing , or it's brother Eidos refuses to let them go ...

If it's indeed the latter , then i admire this strong business relationship , especially in these harsh times ... :thumb:

UhUh
22nd Dec 2009, 17:44
Quality and success aren't tied anywere, same goes for videogames, just look at LookingGlass wich made some of the best games ever.


ps: looking foward thief 4

GrievousOdyssey
22nd Dec 2009, 17:47
Quality and success aren't tied anywere, same goes for videogames,

This is the twenty first century and mankind has miraculously survived its first decade ...

So they better change this for the next one ...
Or else MANKIND WILL DIE ...

No seriously , we have to change this ... somehow ...

Bawabus
22nd Dec 2009, 18:00
We don't have much control. The reason something like Call of Duty sells well is because it has wide mainstream appeal with explosions (NUCLEAR EXPLOSIONS), guns, evil Russians, the U.S. Military, and red dot sights. Dudes eat that stuff up, and even I admit that there's fun to be had with Modern Warfare 2; they made a game that's easy, fun, and not too terribly involved.

Do I think it's a great game? No. Do I think it deserves all the sales and accolades? No.
I like to make the comparison between FPS (like COD), action movies, and pop music. They're shallow, simple, and fun; that's why people like 'em; and that's why more people like them. You don't have to have specific tastes to enjoy those things, only a basic appreciation for being entertained.

We're not the mainstream, and the mainstream controls the majority of the money. Publishers and developers like lots of money, so they're going to make something that appeals to the mainstream.

GrievousOdyssey
22nd Dec 2009, 18:48
Spoke the truth once again , sir ...

But while i don't really give a damn about what the mainstream is choking itself with , the fact that They are in control is what needs to be changed ... or at least we need to do something about it ...

How long will IO Interactive last with its 'different' kind of games ? ...
Since we're not part of the mainstream , we actually have got something to worry about ... as a minority of people who have 'special' tastes , we need to find a reason so that the game companies will spend money , willingly , to satisfy a small portion of its customers ...

Or we can go make a 'Withdrawal' every once in a while and build ourselves a treasure fund , for all the game developpers in need of money to make games that will satisfy our tastes of entertainment ...

It could work ...

(Back on topic for a while : I'm replaying Manhunt 2 right now and it does have camera sways , grainy filters , and dark settings with lil fine details here and there ... so i was right , Dog Days has good reasons to remind me of Rockstar's personnal infamous game , and that's Marvelous news ...)

Bawabus
22nd Dec 2009, 18:57
Well, I don't think we're completely out of luck. As long as IOI learns to make shooter controls that are accessible and smooth--a la, unlearns everything they've been doing on the hitman series in that area--then they'll have an interesting game on their hands that has the potential to sell a million, if not more.

They need to get the basics down for people to enjoy their games for what they basically are. I've always loved their games, but they don't have the basics down. They're like a painter who has great ideas, but who never really grasped human anatomy or perspective fully; while the pictures are really cool, they always have the quirks to them that end up being extremely off-putting as a part of such an impressive painting.

(How was Manhunt 2? I played the first and really enjoyed it, despite them deciding to turn it into a less-than-competent shooter after a certain point. I've seen that game played, and I never really liked the way they did the video effects in it. What are your thoughts on it?)

Unpaid Intern
22nd Dec 2009, 21:47
But while i don't really give a damn about what the mainstream is choking itself with , the fact that They are in control is what needs to be changed ... or at least we need to do something about it ...

That's a nice thought but the masses have the money developers need to prosper. They will always be in control. The best that devs can do is to try to make a product that appeals to both the mainstream and the general public, which I think is entirely possible. A weeks or so ago, I posted a link here in which an EA Montreal rep talked about the difficulty of satisfying everyone with Army of Two:


"We had this whole market in the US that thought the tone was cool, but in Europe everyone thought it was ridiculous and tasteless and a bunch of frat guys running around", EA Montreal's Reid Schneider told GI.biz.

Their solution? Let players tailor the tone of the sequel to the way they're playing it. "One of the things we learned was that we're never going to be able to please both. So the way you interact with your partner and decisions you make – if you're doing a lot of fist bumps – these influence the tone and the dialogue of your character. If your taking it on a more serious level then the game reacts seriously."

As I've said, I don't agree with his claim that 'you can't please both'. It just takes some know-how and some will. Moviemakers do it all the time - why can't game developers?

His proposed player-sensitive 'tone system' sounds like a great idea at first but is in fact a terrible idea; Swapping or skipping a few of the lame one-liners is not going to change the story into a more complex, mature one or morph the characters away from their bland, tasteless and un-cool designs, to name just a couple of examples. In the end, Ao2 will be the same B-movie-style game it always has been. The tone system is obviously just another shallow gimmick for guys like him to dazzle the press with.

To design something tasteful, you have do it from the ground up. The right story, themes, characters, environments...

I won't even concede that good taste turns off the masses. As long as the main track in your entertainment product is accessible, you can make the rest as deep and stylish as you want. Back in the day, Scorcese and DeNiro took years of maneuvering to get Taxi Driver made because producers didn't want to touch the script. To everyone's surprise, the movie was a big hit. Some appreciated the style and mood, others just came for the bloody finale. As a package, it was a very powerful movie and could never have been made by a group of hacks aiming for the bottom of the barrel.

I think that developers need to stop saying to themselves 'it's just a game'. Even a mass-market action adventure game can be made in a tasteful way. Why? Because quality sells! And the more tasteful games are made, the higher the bar will be raised. All the industry needs is a few dedicated pioneers and a minimum of openness from the fans.

/RANT

GrievousOdyssey
23rd Dec 2009, 01:41
As long as IOI learns to make shooter controls that are accessible and smooth--a la, unlearns everything they've been doing on the hitman series in that area--then they'll have an interesting game on their hands that has the potential to sell a million, if not more.

You see here's the thing , i don't want IO to become a 'mainstream company' either ...
How do i explain this ...

Say IO's games is like a glass of vodka , a glass of pure vodka , there's nothing but vodka in it ...
Now We the minority are those who are capable of drinking it the way it is ...
The mainstream however refuses to drink this vodka without some lemon in it (bunch of pansies) ...
So ,IO would then have no option but to add lemon in their glass of vodka to please them ...
While the mainstream would now gladly drink it , WE on the other hand ...
What are the guarantees that we would still like this glass of vodka now that it has lemon in it ? ...

Do you see the risk at stake ?...

GrievousOdyssey
23rd Dec 2009, 01:42
How was Manhunt 2? What are your thoughts on it?

I had fun ... but it could have been a lot better ...

First of as you might have noticed i have a 'different' taste in games (afterall Dead Men is my favorite game of all time ,can't beat that honesty) ,so while i did enjoyed Manhunt 2 a lot ,i doubt you will enjoy it even near as much as i did ...
Second of ,and most importantly ,Manhunt 2 isn't like it's predecessor in terms of gameplay (coincidentally it's kind of like what Dog Days is to Dead Men ,two different gameplay style)...

So if you didn't liked the 'shooting' aspect then you might as well hate Manhunt 2 now because it's full of it...
The 'stealth' ambience was present in the first four levels ,after that it's all bang bang ,hide for a while ,boom headshot ,open lock ,move on...
You're nowhere as vulnerable as you were in the first one ,and with a five hour length and a 'sloppy' storyline ...it kind of suck now that i think about it...

But what is it that made me

GrievousOdyssey
23rd Dec 2009, 01:43
enjoy it as much in my third playthrough just now and my two first back in January ?...

After eleven months i expect from myself a better sense of critique ,especially when trying to find out what it is that had me entertained in this ...half baked game...

Frankly i don't know ...it's not the sound design ,art direction ,characters ,gameplay ...i'm left dumbfounded ...

Perhaps it's just the ending ...yes ...that must be it...
It's the 'satisfaction' i obtained from the ending that somehow made the journey worthwhile...
I wouldn't dare spoil you the ending nor would i even describe the sensation it gave me (kind of embarrassing when trying to recommend game by solely praising on its ending) but i will tell you this...

It is THE best ending ever made from a Rockstar Game's Studio...
(Note that Max Payne isn't made by R* ,and i haven't got the chance to play Episodes from Liberty City...)

Until then , Manhunt 2 ,as 'ok' of a game that it is ,owns the best ending from a R* game ...

GrievousOdyssey
23rd Dec 2009, 01:45
Once again i (almost) agree with everything you say my dear Unpaid Intern...
Except your last part...
Especially this...


All the industry needs is a few dedicated pioneers and a minimum of openness from the fans.

Not going to happen...
As much as i'm a optimistic stupid fool ,i know that unless some miracle happens right now ,at the end of this immature decade ...the next decade won't be so different ...

Then there's this whole problem about being 'accessible' to the mainstream audience ... i don't buy it ...

PS : i don't know about you but the more i hear about these stories of when filmmakers or game developers are trying to pitch a idea that no studio wanted but in the end it becomes a worldwide hit ...the more i hear about these stories the less i believe it ...i mean look ,it was a rather funny story when you hear that no one wanted to fund that 'space movie',but now ...they are loosing their mythical charm ...

Bawabus
23rd Dec 2009, 17:48
Then there's this whole problem about being 'accessible' to the mainstream audience ... i don't buy it ...



You see here's the thing , i don't want IO to become a 'mainstream company' either

There's a difference between being accessible in the area of characters and story, and being accessible in terms of control and gameplay; IOI's games have never been accessible in either area (save Mini Ninjas). I don't think the somewhat stiff control in their games has ever been the reason you or I, or anyone else, goes to play a game made by IOI. If they were to improve their control, it wouldn't have to be a conscious or concerted effort toward making the game more accessible--it may have that side-effect of making the game more accessible, however.

Mainstream is far and away from what IOI is right now, and I don't think making the game more natural in terms of its control would suddenly force them to start making topless military simulators. Their games could only benefit from better controls, seeing as this is an interactive medium, and the interaction between the player and the avatar is kind of important.

GrievousOdyssey
23rd Dec 2009, 17:57
Maybe ...

Then again i remember that Gordon Freeman is hailed as The best player character in the history of video game ...

So for the relationship between the player and the avatar , i'm a bit skeptical on that one ...
(what is going to please you and me from IO's games is not going to please the mainstream , so the problem isn't about being 'accessible' anymore , it's all down to money , and to insure that IO don't get closed down for being the black sheep/dog of the video game industry) ...

I don't know , i feel confused all of sudden ... my bad ...

Out of curiosity , what game do you consider to have 'good' controls ? ...

Bawabus
23rd Dec 2009, 19:46
Out of curiosity , what game do you consider to have 'good' controls ? ...

Battlefield Bad Company 2--and 1 for that matter--have responsive aiming; however, their movement was very boaty and was a bit too based on momentum.

Gears of War 1 has good responsive aiming and the movement wasn't all that bad--moving quickly is a bit of a hazard because of how much you stick to cover inadvertently.

Call of Duty has REALLY responsive controls, making it feel more like an arcade game than anything resembling a realistic shooter.

Mirror's Edge strikes a good balance between momentum and player input, probably the best there is out there.

Uncharted 2 does a very good job of making you feel in control, but not entirely separated from the reality of your character's physical limitations--you could jump crazy far, though...

It really depends on the feel the game is going for. Something arcadey is 'good' for what COD's going for, just as Splinter Cell: chaos Theory's were 'good' for what they were going for. It just depends on the game.

What I do know is that Kane and Lynch's look sensitivity ramped up way too quickly when you held the stick to the extreme left or right (something that plagued Chronicles of Riddick as well), your aim would float a little before it came to a stop when you let off the right stick, the movement felt stiff because of the lack of animation transitions movement between states, and it just wasn't very polished--forgivable, though annoying.

Kent-45
23rd Dec 2009, 21:22
Just picked up a copy of Game Informer from Gamestop for free (they hooked me up :) )

The article is only half a page, and it's very brief... here are some things I noted from the screenshots:

1. Kane is pictured holding what appears to be the M4 from the original game.

2. The game takes place over a 48 hour period

3. Game is supposed to be gritty. The article briefly describes how there will be a lot of camera effects while you're playing like lens flares, shaky camera, and so forth.

4. There's a Fragile Alliance mode with undercover cops who sabotage the heist from within.

5. Lynch is carrying a 3rd shotgun that I can't identify. Looks like a very modernized automatic shotgun. It's not the same as his traditional remington, or the other one with the funky barrel attachments pictured in earlier screenshots. I think Lynch will be using a LOT of shotguns.

that's about it. I was a bit disappointed at how short the article was, but there is some good info in there.

GrievousOdyssey
24th Dec 2009, 01:20
" your aim would float a little before it came to a stop when you let off the right stick, "

Now why the hell would you even let go the right stick ? ...
I don't know about you but my thumb never leaves the stick when i'm shooting ...


Lynch is carrying a 3rd shotgun that I can't identify. Looks like a very modernized automatic shotgun. It's not the same as his traditional remington, or the other one with the funky barrel attachments pictured in earlier screenshots. I think Lynch will be using a LOT of shotguns.

Is it a Armsel Striker ? ...

http://www.imfdb.org/images/3/32/SWD-StreetSweeper.jpg
http://www.imfdb.org/images/2/26/Protecta.jpg

Or is it something like this piece of ... plastic ...

http://www.imfdb.org/images/b/b4/AA12FullAutoShotGun.jpg

I hope it's the Armsel Striker , and i wish there will also have Sawn off shotguns in Dog Days ...

dude63
24th Dec 2009, 02:05
I thought I would kinda start off my first post with a bang! Here is scans I did of the gi article. Apologies if they aren't that great looking lol



1: http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8620/kaneandlynch.jpg

2: http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8080/kaneandlynch2.jpg

On the subject of shotguns. The spas-12 guage (popular in a lot of games) is in one of the screenshots.

GrievousOdyssey
24th Dec 2009, 02:19
Great for a first post , but the last guy who posted scans got the image removed ...

. . .

Pfthahahahahaha not like we're the ones that are going to complain , thanks and welcome to our lil community ...

PS : That's the shotgun Kent spoke of ? ...
That's a modified Spas 12 ... and i hate Spas 12 ... they're so ... unclean ...
But while i still prefer the good old pump action remington , this model doesn't look so bad ...
Still needs to know how it works in-game ...

Also , Hitman easter egg spotted ...

That's pretty embarrassing to have easter egg spotted before the game is released ... :lol:

Edit : On a closer look the 'shotgun' we're all talking about isn't even a shotgun ...
*facepalm*

Brackstone17
24th Dec 2009, 02:40
I thought I would kinda start off my first post with a bang! Here is scans I did of the gi article. Apologies if they aren't that great looking lol



1: http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8620/kaneandlynch.jpg

2: http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8080/kaneandlynch2.jpg

On the subject of shotguns. The spas-12 guage (popular in a lot of games) is in one of the screenshots.
I can't figure out what the other shotgun is. Any ideas?

Edit: I think I found it. It's the second picture of my link.

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh39-e.htm

GrievousOdyssey
24th Dec 2009, 02:52
But that's the thing ...
It AIN'T a shotgun ...
(YES IT IS ! *kicks Grievous into a volcano*) ...

Or it's a model that IO cooked up ...

Or maybe i'm just getting confused again ...

*after some research*

Benelli M2 Super 90 in tactical pistol grip configuration , standard rifle sights - 12 gauge ...

http://www.imfdb.org/images/9/96/BenelliM2Tactical.jpg

Edit : Nevermind ...

Brackstone17
24th Dec 2009, 02:55
It IS a shotgun. Check my link. The picture matches up perfectly. It's a Chinese semi auto riot shotgun.

GrievousOdyssey
24th Dec 2009, 03:02
I was searching while you posted hence why i missed your post in the first place ...

A Norinco ... Chinese clone of the Remington 870 , lmao ...
And it's a modified one too , great ...

But it's a shame to see that shotguns have been twisted and molded into these instruments of mass killing ...
So un-civilised ...

Brackstone17
24th Dec 2009, 03:08
I have to say I'm liking how the weapons in this game will be ones actually used in the area. I'm not a gun nut or anything, but it just annoys me in games when you get Russian soldiers running around with American guns for no apparent reason.

GrievousOdyssey
24th Dec 2009, 03:12
Sir you just managed to indentify this in under than a minute and you claim you ain't a gun nut ? ...

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/hawk_semi_std.jpg

Brackstone17
24th Dec 2009, 03:16
Sir you just managed to indentify this in under than a minute and you claim you ain't a gun nut ? ...

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/hawk_semi_std.jpg
I was curious, so I went to world guns and decided that the best place to check was the Chinese semi auto shotguns because the thing didn't look like a pump shotgun and the game takes place in Shanghai. There was only one option, so there we go.

GrievousOdyssey
24th Dec 2009, 03:19
Arso ...

People were right when they said the internet is a dangerous place ...

dude63
24th Dec 2009, 03:21
That shotgun would be fitting given where the game is located.

Thanks for the welcoming to the community. pickedu p Kane and Lynch early this year and fell in love with it. I enjoy the game greatly. Hopefully the sequel refines some of the flaws of the first one..like the auto cover system.

What do you mean by unclean when talking of a spas 12 guage?

GrievousOdyssey
24th Dec 2009, 04:13
Maybe 'unclean' isn't the right word ...
And since i'm really tired i tend to say lots of contradictions , anywya ...

THIS ... is a shotgun ...

http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/NEW/50411.jpg

It's like an extension of the arm , long , smooth , righteous ... and , well , Marvelous ...
It isn't something that you can conceal easily and removing the rifle butt isn't a option ... (afterall you need that piece to be able to use the shotgun as a mean of strangulation ... and smashing skulls too)

It's not something as clunky and nasty as the Spas 12 ...

http://home.planet.nl/~rouw0062/dcdbase/images/fa/sg/fa_sg_spas12_1.jpg

It's just not a elegant weapon ...
Makes you feel like you're using it for the purpose of not killing , but destroying the man under that barrel ...
While it still has a 'pump action' feature ... it just doesn't feel the same ...
With a classic shotgun you feel this strength required to pump it after each shot , you can feel

GrievousOdyssey
24th Dec 2009, 04:15
this anger ,this violence ,this ... determination ,that drives a human being to pump the gun after Each and Every Shot ...
The Spas 12 lacks that feel ,like just about every modern shotgun ...
With the exception of the Armsel Striker all the modern shotguns either lacks that 'Feel' ,or just don't look like shotguns at all ... Take a look ...

This is a Armsel Striker ...

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/PROTECTA.JPG

You know it doesn't feel like a extension of a arm ,but it has got a certain charm to it ,and for a modern weapon ,i give it some praises ...

And now look at these ...

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/hawk_semi_bullpup.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/mka_1919_1.jpg

They're both shotguns ...do they look like it ,no ,do they have the 'Feel' to it ,no ,do people care ?... Nope ...

These 'upgraded' shotguns ,as I see it , has lost their 'identity' ...
They're just ... machines , made to kill easily ... no honor involved ...

It's not clean ...

Kent-45
24th Dec 2009, 04:20
all I need is an M4 and I'll be happy.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/m4a1_1.jpg

Brackstone17
24th Dec 2009, 04:31
http://www.yourprops.com/norm-478ccb7f1a18c-Jurassic+Park+%281993%29.jpeg

If it's good enough for Robert, it's good enough for me.

Also he was more awesome in the book.

GrievousOdyssey
24th Dec 2009, 04:43
Alright that's it ...

http://www.fairfieldmint.com/images/v7gunwx_hero.jpg

I don't care how the hell there's one of these in Shanghai , but i don't see why people from modern time can't use these antique weapons ...
Are since Lynch and Kane are the ones so gifted at defying the sense of norm in the video game industry ...
Why Not ? ...

dude63
24th Dec 2009, 06:41
I see what your saying, however its still a shoty nonetheless. I too like the look and feel of a classic pump action shoty. However, what does it matter when it works the same? Ya know? Since were exploring guns I thought I would throw out a few rifles and machine guns

Possibly one of the best and most accurate rifle ever. While it can't reach out and sreatch across infinite football fields. IT does its job.
Walther wa 2000...beautiful
http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/3459.gif

Light compact, and can reach out and touch people. Its a pocket rifle, I must say a deadly one at that!
PSG1
http://remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/psg1/psg1b.gif

MP7, nasty little machine gun. Functions just like the mp5..except its smaller and more compact. The mp5 is a classic weapon and would be great to make a appearance. Both these guns are reliable and fire ready!

http://www.planetairsoft.net/reviews/marui-mp7/real-mp7.jpg

http://www.germansportguns.de/pics4all/upload/p4718c0_GSG-5.jpg

Last but not least iconic super image!

http://www.rocchi.org/civili/foto/spas12_terminator.jpg

One of Seven
24th Dec 2009, 07:32
I want the AA12 to be in this game, the gun's really badass. 20 rounds in under four seconds, can be equiped with grenade rounds thus turning it into a launcher, and hardly any recoil.

dude63
24th Dec 2009, 07:50
If Lynch is in fact working with a gun dealer and such. We should see some more variety in weaponry. Yea, the AA12 would be beast if it was in this game. Would be kinda cheap online though lol!

GrievousOdyssey
24th Dec 2009, 12:59
The Walther 2000 , MP7 and MP5 all made a appearence in past Hitman games , i wouldn't be surprised if they show up in the Kane & Lynch series (considering that these two games do takes place on the same universe) ...

Unpaid Intern
25th Dec 2009, 19:42
As much as i'm a optimistic stupid fool ,i know that unless some miracle happens right now ,at the end of this immature decade ...the next decade won't be so different ...

Then there's this whole problem about being 'accessible' to the mainstream audience ... i don't buy it ...

First off: though you'd never guess it by reading most game forum comments, K&L itself sold around 2 million units despite all the bad press. That is not a fringe product.

So when we talk about 'art vs mainstream', let us first make sure that we're talking about the same thing. I'm not calling for games to become super-progressive, super-inaccessible arty farty stuff. I simply wish for games to emerge from this cycle of imitating each other's (and cinema's) cliches to the point of nausea and give us something just moderately stylish and original once in a while. I'm not asking for Dancer in the Dark - Casino Royale will do :)

Video games are a relatively new medium and there have been flashes of promise so yes, I do think it's possible for things to improve.


PS : i don't know about you but the more i hear about these stories of when filmmakers or game developers are trying to pitch a idea that no studio wanted but in the end it becomes a worldwide hit ...the more i hear about these stories the less i believe it ...i mean look ,it was a rather funny story when you hear that no one wanted to fund that 'space movie',but now ...they are loosing their mythical charm ...

We keep hearing these stories because they reflect the unalterable reality of trying to produce something with artistic value when a lot of people and money are involved.

Doing something different in these conditions always requires pulling against a large group of people who lack vision and/or balls and would rather just do the same old s***. Some of them are 'suits' but many of them are actually creatives directly involved in production.

The problem is that these 'creatives' aren't creative at all. They just want to imitate what they already know - the last game they played, movie they saw or else they just mindlessly pull things from the flavourless soup in their brain that has formed through exposure to mass media.

Real 'cool' is always a bit extreme, raw and ahead of the masses ..until it is presented to them in the correct way. Then they eat it up and it is of course imitated en masse, over and over again until it becomes something supremely ordinary and un-cool that you once again have to tear yourself away from when you try to do something new.

But somehow, gems still occasionally emerge because there are always a few people who want to push the envelope. As I said earlier: games haven't been around that long and as the industry becomes bigger, more and more talented people are becoming interested in the field. Some of them will make these gems for us :)

GrievousOdyssey
25th Dec 2009, 21:01
Well we shall see then ...

I personally am getting bored with it all ...
Nothing ever surprises me anymore , and nothing of our time is actually worth any praises when comparing them to the creations of the last century ...
It is possible for things , like video games for example , to improve ...
But somehow i doubt even the most brilliant minds can create a 'identity' for the world of video games ... a identity different from the world of cinema ...

I just don't think it's possible , and even if it is , the people , the audience , will have to accept this change ...

And that's not going to happen , either ...

PS : what is 'art' anywya ...

Unpaid Intern
25th Dec 2009, 21:27
Damn, now you're making me depressed :)

GrievousOdyssey
25th Dec 2009, 22:11
Us brothers have to share our pain , depressing thoughts , and hope ...

Hope keeps us alive ...
It's just that for some time now , i can hardly imagine what is there to live for in these days ...

I wonder if Dog Days will explore this theme , about the meaning of survival : what is there for Kane to live ? why should Lynch struggle to live a peaceful life if he will never be truly 'free' of his issues ? ...

I somehow look at it as a parallel to our lives ...
And then sit on my couch ,looking passionately into the void ,and wonder ... What do i want ?...

Living a life lamenting at the naive nature of the majority of people of this broken world when showing them 'art'...
What do they know about art ? in film mediums i can hardly stand the 'easiness' for them to call a film a work of art ,and in video games ,ha ,give them full black white with a foreign song ,or a colorful game with abstract crap at the background ,or ,the best of all ,a giant red arrow pointing at the game saying

GrievousOdyssey
25th Dec 2009, 22:13
that "this is artistic" ,and these people will believe it ,and what was once a honor when a creation is deemed a work of art ,now it's just another title given away freely ,some will surely take advantage of this ,giving away 'pretentious' work of art ,and who will be smart enough to say "No" to all of this ...

Reviews ain't so wise either ,i remember days when good games and great films had metacritic scores that don't go past the eighty percent ,now ,in these people's mentality it's basically a insult to see a score that is lower than the ninety percents and reviewers becomes less severe as time goes by ...

What do i want...
Living a life lamenting at these kind situations ?...
No ...
Do something to 'change' the idiotic reality ?...
I'll end up dead and for nothing ...
So live a selfish life all by myself then ?...
Spending the rest of my days looking at the ocean ain't exactly a life ...
Then again what is 'to live' ?...
Work ,have money ,buy stuff ...
Buy What ?...

Guns ?...