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View Full Version : Thoughts and Concerns: Hoping DD is more than KnL1.5



MacabreDerek
26th Nov 2009, 19:18
I write this with more concern than optimism, but I feel at the very least this is the best way to comunicate as a consumer to Eidos about Dog Days.

I bought into the idea presented in the hype of Kane and Lynch before it's release, and that faint bit of hope still remains for KnL2, however, I cant really say that the original was all that was promised.

That said, I can see 'the game that might have been'. I played through KnL-DM and though I feel it definitely could have been improved, the concept itself is strong enough to warrant a sequel, and I am glad Eidos agrees. Everyone's heard where the game could have done better, but I'd like to bring up two VERY recent sequels and mistakes I hope KnL2 can avoid.

The first comes with Assassin's Creed 2. Though it fixed a lot of the issues in AC1, it didnt bring much else. It felt that they tried to get all the leaks and figured it was good enough. Unfortunately, it seems that they forgot a lot of the Wow-factor was used up during the first game, as such it turned into a game that was more 'Been-there, done-that' rather than a true sequel.

The second comes from COD: Modern Warefare 2. In the first, a few key twists and experiences brought this game above and beyond it's typical FPS brethren, but in MW2, they tried to add more of these moments, many of them unnecessary, and as such actually produced a weaker campaign than the first. Let the crescendo events ring, and give them the birth and respect they deserve.

With Kane and Lynch there is a formula for a darker story to tell, but in that I would also say there is a formula for dark humour to play out, and with the experiences told in the first game, levity is going to be needed as a breath. We're talking about two guys who've gone through hell, unwillingly bound together, and that situation lends itself to darker comedy.

From they guys who did Hitman and Batman:Arkham Asylum, we know KnL2 has the chance to be much more than a simple 1.5 update to patch over the rough spots. You have a chance to continue offering truely unique content to the industry as you did with Fragile Alliance (I still stand it as one of the best multiplayer ideas this past decade).

And lastly, delay the game if it ensures a higher quality product. A delayed game is only delayed until it ships, but a bad game remains bad forever. Most of us who look forward to this release are hoping for a great product, and are willing to wait a little longer to ensure it.

Bevacur
26th Nov 2009, 19:27
I really hope Dog Days keeps the dark drama story like the original game did, no comedy but all serious. I highly doubt if criminals were in a bank surrounded by police and swat while their daughter is hold hostage would not crack a few jokes but be paranoid and angry and will lose patience over simple so hopefully it will still be a dark drama story.

Mercenary of The7
26th Nov 2009, 19:27
IOI didn't make Batman: AA, it was a company called Rocksteady Studios.

And 1.5? Get outta here. Read some of the preview stuff.

TheMoD
26th Nov 2009, 19:41
Nah judging by what I've read so far, they've pretty much done everything from scratch. sooo i'm pretty sure it's k&l2 and not k&l1.5

Falkenwut
26th Nov 2009, 19:44
Quoting somewhere I read on the internet:
They will be re-vamping the whole engine. So It may even feel like a totally different game. It's a good thing when it comes to the video-game industry.

If you ever played the old Tomb Raider games (particularly the first 5 games), they all seemed alike, because they were using an only tweaked version of the predecessor. and by 2000, the game still felt like a game of 1996 (reguarding gameplay)

From IOI's hitsory, you guys must have enjoyed the Transition from Hitman 3 to Hitman 4. It wasn't a total re-vamping but it felt different and still a hell of a lot of fun.

U may see this as a scary change but I'm sure IOI are doing a hell of a good job at this

MacabreDerek
26th Nov 2009, 20:07
@Bevacur: Everyone's got their tastes, but I've always looked at Kane and Lynch's relationship in the same way as Merchant of Venice, where it really can swing either way. The comedy with KnL often times shows itself in the advertising, and I have to admit I got a chuckle as Lynch was polishing the blood off the bowling ball in Bowling for Shanghai. It's those little bits of humor that serve as a great levity to the over-arching dark and serious tone of the game. If you care to see what I mean, look at the series Breaking Bad (Amazing show, probably one of the darker stories on television, but is fundamentally a dark comedy).

@ Mercenary of The7: I stand corrected, and my appaulogies go to Rocksteady Studioes. However, yes, 1.5 is my concern. We've had so many sequel releases that can be attributed to being nothing more, claiming that they are true sequels and then failing on that promise. I am sure if you've looked at a few games in this quarter you'd see more than your share of this phenomena.

As far as visuals go, when we start getting these quotes:

“But it’s not just the pace of the action that’s exciting: it’s the way it’s presented. The entire game is delivered in YouTube style”

“It’s District 9 meets Cloverfield”

“…striking and instantly attention-grabbing; as if everything is seen from a mobile phone chasing our anti-heroes. It’s not just a gimmick; it creates a distinctly anxious vibe”

“The result is that while you’re playing the game there’s also the sensation of being a panicked observer, rushing to keep up with Kane and Lynch”

Let me make my stance perfectly clear: The whole Shaky-cam thing was doing no one any favours. District 9 was amazing but most of it was using solid cinematography, where any shaky-cam elements where more documentary-style, as oppose to a camera being whacked around every half-second in the garbage viral marketed Cloverfield.

The game delivered YouTube style? I'm sorry to say, but 90% of the videos on YT are garbage (Hell, 90% of everything is). If we're getting most of the cut scenes and such in the form of cell-cam videos and handi-cam with bad lighting, I think we're in for a long night.

As far as being an observer trying to keep up with the duo, is that really the role we want when it comes to interactive entertainment?

MacabreDerek
26th Nov 2009, 20:15
Quoting somewhere I read on the internet:
They will be re-vamping the whole engine. So It may even feel like a totally different game. It's a good thing when it comes to the video-game industry.

From IOI's hitsory, you guys must have enjoyed the Transition from Hitman 3 to Hitman 4. It wasn't a total re-vamping but it felt different and still a hell of a lot of fun.

U may see this as a scary change but I'm sure IOI are doing a hell of a good job at this

The engine change may be a start, KnL definitely deserve it. And yes, if it is as good of a jump as it was in the Hitman series, then we would be in for a treat. Thanks for offering up some optimism.

Bevacur
26th Nov 2009, 20:16
@Bevacur: Everyone's got their tastes, but I've always looked at Kane and Lynch's relationship in the same way as Merchant of Venice, where it really can swing either way. The comedy with KnL often times shows itself in the advertising, and I have to admit I got a chuckle as Lynch was polishing the blood off the bowling ball in Bowling for Shanghai. It's those little bits of humor that serve as a great levity to the over-arching dark and serious tone of the game. If you care to see what I mean, look at the series Breaking Bad (Amazing show, probably one of the darker stories on television, but is fundamentally a dark comedy).



I love comedy most of my dvds, games whatever are mostly comedy and the odd horror comedy (i love shaun of the dead and i watched zombieland and i loved it)

I just personally think that say Killzone 1 and 2 for example its a gritty dark fps game and then Killzone 3 appears and it now has serious sam comedy in it how would you feel about that?

What about Silent Hill? they add humour maybe dark humour how would you feel about that? Sucker punch in the face is how i would feel if Silent Hill added humour to it.

What i am trying to say is humour or dark humour does not fit the Kane and Lynch universe and like you said before its just my opinion.

Acid_Burn
26th Nov 2009, 20:23
What i am trying to say is humour or dark humour does not fit the Kane and Lynch universe and like you said before its just my opinion.
There were a lot of humour in the first game. It was veild.
Especially the bank robbery scene. Listen again Lynch's explanation why he killed all the hostages.

Bevacur
26th Nov 2009, 20:34
There were a lot of humour in the first game. It was veild.
Especially the bank robbery scene. Listen again Lynch's explanation why he killed all the hostages.

To be honest i might of rushed the game, but that might be why i never heard any humour or i just spent the majority of my time killing all the dancers in the nightclub i could not resist.

Out of all the blabble i have said in my old posts what i am trying to say is i hope Dog Days keeps the same tone and atmosphere as Dead Men.

MacabreDerek
26th Nov 2009, 20:35
@Bevacur: I personally didnt care for Killzone 2, never bothered to play Killzone 1. However, Killzone 2 did offer up it's sets of 1-liners and such for levity, especially in the first half.

Silent Hill (For the purposes of this discussion we'll just ignore Homecoming to give you the best stance for your point) did not lend itself at all to comedy, in characters or situation. This is the key diffrence with Kane and Lynch which in there relationship strikes me more as a very dark version of The Odd Couple/Grumpy Old Men, with a story around crime storys (HEAT being one of the key influences for the first game).

We have one guy who's always out for himself, chained for whatever reason to a medicated sociopath who is prone to blackouts and violence without focus. There is a formula for awkward/comedic interactions, particularly on the brutal/horrible side of grotesque. The line "It's a little more complicated than that" comes to mind.

The original KnL wasn't big on humour, nor should it have been. However, the teaser trailers offer up little bits of dark comedy, and though I dont offer up that dark comedy should be the focus (By far, keep the game as ball-busting visceral as they can), but I appreciate good pacing, and in that we have something between Kane and Lynch that is unique.

Bevacur
26th Nov 2009, 20:42
@Bevacur: I personally didnt care for Killzone 2, never bothered to play Killzone 1. However, Killzone 2 did offer up it's sets of 1-liners and such for levity, especially in the first half.

Silent Hill (For the purposes of this discussion we'll just ignore Homecoming to give you the best stance for your point) did not lend itself at all to comedy, in characters or situation. This is the key diffrence with Kane and Lynch which in there relationship strikes me more as a very dark version of The Odd Couple/Grumpy Old Men, with a story around crime storys (HEAT being one of the key influences for the first game).

We have one guy who's always out for himself, chained for whatever reason to a medicated sociopath who is prone to blackouts and violence without focus. There is a formula for awkward/comedic interactions, particularly on the brutal/horrible side of grotesque. The line "It's a little more complicated than that" comes to mind.

The original KnL wasn't big on humour, nor should it have been. However, the teaser trailers offer up little bits of dark comedy, and though I dont offer up that dark comedy should be the focus (By far, keep the game as ball-busting visceral as they can), but I appreciate good pacing, and in that we have something between Kane and Lynch that is unique.

I never cared about Killzone 1 or 2 i dont even have a ps3 but i used it as an example if the devs decided to amp the humour up and to see how would others feel if a very mature game suddenly got some slapstick humour (not saying this about Dead Men or Dog Days). But all im trying to say is please still keep the mature tone up and the same atmosphere like Dead Men. I loved the story its not Hero vs Villian and does not have the typical happy ending.

Falkenwut
26th Nov 2009, 20:50
I doubt the humour will be overdone though. The hand-held media style video won't help in the humour segment... The humour in the Kane and Lynch aura would have to be dark humour.. I doubt over-done is the case here.

Vulture
26th Nov 2009, 20:54
There were a lot of humour in the first game. It was veild.
Especially the bank robbery scene. Listen again Lynch's explanation why he killed all the hostages.

yep,K&L had the mixture of drama and humour (L)

MacabreDerek
26th Nov 2009, 20:58
@Bevacur: Perhapse I have mislead you into believing something I didnt intend to convey Bev, and for that I apologize. When I say dark humour in Kane and Lynch, I did not mean I want the entire GAME to be turned into something that it's not.

Kane and Lynch is a crime story told by the perspective of the criminals. First and formost this is what the game should be. What I am trying to convey is the use of such comedy as levity, a moment where the game can take in inappropriate lack of seriousness to break up the flow and often times give the player a moment to take in all that has happened. Earlier the case when Lynch looses it in the bank and kills the hostages, and tries to offer up an excuse, and the player learning about the pills and Lynch's condition, is a good time for that levity to show.

Same goes for the teaser in Bowling for Shanghai, after Lynch uses a bowling ball to break open a door, we assume blugeon some poor guy to death with it, and leaves. He didnt HAVE to make a bowling stance when swinging the ball through the door, nore did he need to polish the ball before putting it back in the case, but for dark comedy, it works, and it also makes Lynch seem that more depraved because he can make a joke about someone getting beaten to death with a bowling ball.

This is the kind of humour I enjoy and see great potential in Kane and Lynch as a pairing, and I personally see it as very appropriate.

Thanks for having this discussion in such a civil manner Bevacur

Unpaid Intern
26th Nov 2009, 21:19
Interesting thread I think. With regards to the humor: the way I see it, most of the comedy in K&L is 'inadvertent', which works well for the franchise. By this I mean that there aren't many actual jokes told (except, for ex. "We just got out of prison!").

I hope it stays that way because wisecracks during firefights really kill the sense of danger ..and it's just so 80/90s :)

DrDoom
26th Nov 2009, 21:25
I gotta be honest with you I was set to read that till you said Assassin's Creed 2 didn't have a wow factor, cause we must not have been playing the same game.

I'm not gonna get into an argument not even made by Eidos though.

So what I can say is that they seem to be completely revamping the Kane and Lynch series from a gameplay standpoint so I wouldn't worry about the old been there done this feeling.

One of Seven
27th Nov 2009, 07:33
The game's going to be badass and everybody knows it.

Mercenary of The7
27th Nov 2009, 18:51
The game's going to be badass and everybody knows it.

.......Naaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh....

Falkenwut
27th Nov 2009, 22:49
The game's going to be badass and everybody knows it.

Despite that I'll agree with you, I'll keep the second part of that statement for when the game is released.

GrievousOdyssey
29th Nov 2009, 16:08
.......naaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh....

Quote Of The Year ...

Kent-45
29th Nov 2009, 16:46
I write this with more concern than optimism, but I feel at the very least this is the best way to comunicate as a consumer to Eidos about Dog Days.

I bought into the idea presented in the hype of Kane and Lynch before it's release, and that faint bit of hope still remains for KnL2, however, I cant really say that the original was all that was promised.

I agree totally. I myself was an avid Hitman fan, and just happened to stumble across a Kane & Lynch teaser on YouTube. I remember seeing the two characters and my interested perked... It was more out of confusion than anything... I wanted to know what this game was all about, and it's statement "From the makers of Hitman" had me hooked from the get-go. I don't necessarily feel like the game promised me anything though, because honestly I didn't know what to expect when I bought the game. I never played the demo, I had no idea what I was in for. When I played Kane & Lynch for the first time, I had to turn off my "Hitman" mentality and it was like learning to drive a car all over again.


That said, I can see 'the game that might have been'. I played through KnL-DM and though I feel it definitely could have been improved, the concept itself is strong enough to warrant a sequel, and I am glad Eidos agrees. Everyone's heard where the game could have done better, but I'd like to bring up two VERY recent sequels and mistakes I hope KnL2 can avoid.

I knew that there was a sequel planned. They were talking about Kane & Lynch as a franchise even before the game was released. Unfortunately there was a period of complete deadness from about 2008 until now where there was absolutely nothing reported on with regard to the sequel, or even the franchise. It's hard to say what the developers were thinking. I'm very excited that they didn't scrap the entire project, after the pretty mediocre response to Kane & Lynch: Dead Men.... so in that regard, I'm glad that I'll get to keep playing my favorite game characters in some sort of capacity.


The first comes with Assassin's Creed 2. Though it fixed a lot of the issues in AC1, it didnt bring much else. It felt that they tried to get all the leaks and figured it was good enough. Unfortunately, it seems that they forgot a lot of the Wow-factor was used up during the first game, as such it turned into a game that was more 'Been-there, done-that' rather than a true sequel.

The second comes from COD: Modern Warefare 2. In the first, a few key twists and experiences brought this game above and beyond it's typical FPS brethren, but in MW2, they tried to add more of these moments, many of them unnecessary, and as such actually produced a weaker campaign than the first. Let the crescendo events ring, and give them the birth and respect they deserve.

I have not played either of these games, but I see the point you are making and it's a good one. I think the problem though is that Kane & Lynch never got the "technical" stuff right the first time, so they've literally got to play catch up. They can't really focus completely on the story in Kane & Lynch 2, because they've got a lot of technical stuff they need to work on. IOInteractive is starting from scratch for Kane & Lynch 2, they basically took out everything that didn't work for the first game and are going forward with that mentality.... needless to say... when you remove anything, you're going backward a little bit, so from a development standpoint they are going to have to play catchup a little bit.


With Kane and Lynch there is a formula for a darker story to tell, but in that I would also say there is a formula for dark humour to play out, and with the experiences told in the first game, levity is going to be needed as a breath. We're talking about two guys who've gone through hell, unwillingly bound together, and that situation lends itself to darker comedy.

A lot of people talk about the dark humor in Kane & Lynch but it's actually a very humorless game. The humor is unintentional, and you have to have a certain mindset to really pick up on it. If you're the kind of person that thinks it's funny when Lynch goes "Well I was aiming for her leg!" then you'll probably find this game pretty darkly funny... but that said... the humor is never explicitly put out there. It's all situational. The teasers and viral videos are actually where most of the humor in Kane & Lynch is... and that's a shame... because there's a lot of room for it. Honestly, I really want IOInteractive to focus on the story and the gameplay before they try to get funny. The dark humor is going to occur naturally, they just need to make a story that isn't convoluded and confusing.


From they guys who did Hitman and Batman:Arkham Asylum, we know KnL2 has the chance to be much more than a simple 1.5 update to patch over the rough spots. You have a chance to continue offering truely unique content to the industry as you did with Fragile Alliance (I still stand it as one of the best multiplayer ideas this past decade).

IOInteractive basically said in not-so-many=words that they were forced to release Kane & Lynch before it was ready to meet a holiday deadline imposed by Eidos. They were not satisfied with the product they released, but at the same time, they concede that deadlines are the nature of the beast. Needless to say... Kane & Lynch definitely feels unfinished in a lot of places. There is clearly the framework for something really cool here, and they've got a good set of ideas, but they just needed to work on it more. Fragile Alliance is unique and I think if they get this right, the Kane & Lynch franchise will take off.


And lastly, delay the game if it ensures a higher quality product. A delayed game is only delayed until it ships, but a bad game remains bad forever. Most of us who look forward to this release are hoping for a great product, and are willing to wait a little longer to ensure it.

I don't think they're gonna delay this product. We're probably going to get a June 2010 release, whether it's ready or not. Eidos is still the publisher and they probably have some kind of deadline requirement for this thing. It sucks, but it's the nature of the beast. I hope that whatever IOInteractive releases, they continue to patch, update, and expand upon their game in the form of DLC content or whatever else. One of the reasons why a lot of Kane & Lynch fans were pissed off is because they basically released this half-finished product, refused to release patches, then released a DLC for consoles only, and then washed their hands of it. Up until the new site went live, they hadn't even finished their own website ... there were still sections that said "Coming soon" ... you can draw what conclusions you want from this, but the message I got was clear. We wash our hands of this game.

It's become clear to me what they're doing with this sequel, and they've started from scratch. I think there's a good chance that the sequel will make little or no reference to the original game or the events that transpired. I think that this could be a really awesome thing, or a huge mistake.... I don't think there will be much middle ground here. I think it's important to keep our expectations realistic. Look at what IOInteractive has done at their best in terms of games. That's what we can expect. I think if you expect Gears of War or Grand Theft Auto 4 when you open the box you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. I don't think you can "scrap everything" and still hope to create the kind of polished game that people expect. Part of me kind of wishes that instead of trying to reboot the franchise, they just built upon what they already have, but I guess it's not my call to make.

GrievousOdyssey
29th Nov 2009, 17:04
Yep , it's a spin-off alright , not a real sequel ...

Falkenwut
29th Nov 2009, 23:30
Please IOI... plleeeeaasse... RELEASE MORE INFO!!!

GrievousOdyssey
30th Nov 2009, 16:41
How much 'info' do you think they can release before spoiling the whole game ? ...

I'll be glad if we can already get five screenshots ... per Month ...

Kent-45
30th Nov 2009, 17:28
Kane & Lynch 2 doesn't sound like a spin-off so much as it's a reboot of the series. Think about Hitman 2 versus Hitman 1... they are like night and day, in terms of how the characters look, the mechanics and all that... but at the core they both are built around the same principles. It's no different here...

and I expect a trailer before Christmas

GrievousOdyssey
30th Nov 2009, 17:54
We still don't know if Lynch and Kane are the Same as we used to know them , you know that ...

Oh and i expect a debut trailer at Spike's Video Game Awards ...

Falkenwut
30th Nov 2009, 20:10
please... MORE TRAILERS IOI GET MORE TRAILERS!!! ANYTHING WOULD SUFFICE... You're killing us here :(

DrDoom
1st Dec 2009, 03:14
We still don't know if Lynch and Kane are the Same as we used to know them , you know that ...

Oh and i expect a debut trailer at Spike's Video Game Awards ...

That's what I'm hoping for as well. It would awesome.

New Prince of Persia, new Star Wars game and the first official trailer for Kane and Lynch 2 would make it a hell of a night.

Kent-45
1st Dec 2009, 05:07
I don't know if IOInteractive has the kind of pull to get a trailer in the Spike Awards. Anyway last time I saw those they were all over Blizzard like a cheap hooker. It was World of Warcraft this and World of Warcraft that... made me kinda sick