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Razaiim
2nd Mar 2014, 01:28
So I have a couple questions, one mostly aimed at George and any other SE people and one aimed more at the fans of the series.

So one think that I've been thinking about is what inspired Square Enix to resurrect an IP, which recieved it's fame through driven story-telling, dynamic characterization, and single player action (which appear to be undervalued by many developers, the trend now is opt in for a cheap single-player campaign/tutorial, and then go balls in on the same multiplayer that so many other games have), and hasn't seen any new attention or media in 10 years? What made you go, this is the IP to base our new product off of?

Secondly, what do you, and the fans, hope for in the future of LoK, if a new single player oriented game was made? When would you want it set, out of the many stories in Nosgoth, what would you want to be seen?

Personally, I would be most interested in the Ancient/Hylden war that started it all, and showcases the events that lead to the Ancient Races taking such drastic measures to eliminate each other. I also wouldn't mind a companion to Nosgoth that really highlights how the war ended and how both Humans and Vampires seemed to have fought each other to near extinction by the time of soul reaver.

CountEyokir
2nd Mar 2014, 07:56
I still largely suspect Nosgoth in its current form came about because it was thought it would be more financially successful then Dead Sun would have been. Personally I'm glad for that because I'd have roasted any attempt at a retcon, in canon or otherwise, over an open flame. LoK didn't need a retcon. It would have been like trying to retcon Lord of the Rings. But I'll let any of the development team confirm, deny or not comment on that one.


As for what I would want to see in the future of LOK?....Hmm....well I hope I speak for everyone here when I say "Nosgoth might be ok for now, but any attempt to do nothing but multiplayer with this franchise from now on will be met with nothing but hostility." SP titles are a must but not necessarily an immediate return to Kain to give us a game like the Dark prophecy.

I would prefer to see, at first, a Vampire based RPG with skill trees, areas to explore, emphasis put on evolving powers and physical appearance - centred around Vorador - telling the story of what he did during his youthful Vampire days. It'd be a good chance to introduce new fans to what the series is supposed to be, get their teeth into the lore properly without the risk of trying Kain out right away.

Ygdrasel
2nd Mar 2014, 08:50
I still largely suspect Nosgoth in its current form came about because it was thought it would be more financially successful then Dead Sun would have been. Personally I'm glad for that because I'd have roasted any attempt at a retcon, in canon or otherwise, over an open flame. LoK didn't need a retcon. It would have been like trying to retcon Lord of the Rings. But I'll let any of the development team confirm, deny or not comment on that one.


As for what I would want to see in the future of LOK?....Hmm....well I hope I speak for everyone here when I say "Nosgoth might be ok for now, but any attempt to do nothing but multiplayer with this franchise from now on will be met with nothing but hostility." SP titles are a must but not necessarily an immediate return to Kain to give us a game like the Dark prophecy.

I would prefer to see, at first, a Vampire based RPG with skill trees, areas to explore, emphasis put on evolving powers and physical appearance - centred around Vorador - telling the story of what he did during his youthful Vampire days. It'd be a good chance to introduce new fans to what the series is supposed to be, get their teeth into the lore properly without the risk of trying Kain out right away.

What's this talk about a retcon? Dead Sun wasn't a retcon. It was set far beyond any time seen before (the latest of which was Soul Reaver) and as such introduced new elements but it didn't break any firmly-established lore in doing so. If it did anything iffy, it was that it was slated to heavily involve the Elder God as subject matter which creates a foregone conclusion that Kain never fully destroyed him...Or perhaps just fled into the timestream to bide his time, which would be something he has done often before. I always took the new race it was going to introduce as some kind of vampire hybrid combining Ancient blood and the Cursed variety, hinting that the timestream was toyed with to somehow circumvent the damage caused by the Hylden curse to a degree by reintroducing Ancient blood. Personally, I would've liked to see what it had to offer.

As for the future of LoK...Nosgoth is great for a taste and getting the interest sparking up again. But we must have real SP continuations. Daniel's involvement with Nosgoth has me a tad more hopeful but cautiously so (and keeping a grip on that caution is difficult because thinking of the possibilities hypes me up). Nosgoth has to both make money and unveil a sizable fanbase to make a real return to the franchise seem profitable enough. RECOMMEND THIS GAME EVERYWHERE AND BUY EVERYTHING IN IT.

Ahem...

Obviously, a direct sequel to Defiance to FINALLY tie up the story would be great...But that's what, one more game? I'm almost tempted to say Kain's battle with the EG should take more than one game anyway...Which, given the sheer vastness of the EG's power and influence on the world throughout history and his unfettered access to the timestream and spectral realm (and all the souls in it), isn't really a stretch at all. And the final battle would have to be something crazy epic. I remember reading somewhere this idea of taking him down being a game-long process of killing him off bit-by-bit as you progress...

But, anyway. An immediate sequel is not, I feel, the best way to go with this. Prequels or distant-sequels (ala Dead Sun), that's where the immediate future of the series should lie.

Something with Vorador would be amazing. I remember when Defiance came, the big draw was playing as both Kain and Raziel together...But playing as Vorador? I would eat that up. Maybe show his evolution over time...Like, we see Kain evolve over time, but not in any single game. Having a vampire's evolution as a plot point in some way could be interesting.

Something back during the time of the Ancient Vampires and the Hylden would be great too.


And if LoK can get in on the modern open-world trend, I would positively drool at that. Back when I played Soul Reaver for the first time and found the Human Citadel, the way their behavior changed based on your gameplay was unbelievably awesome. Depending on your choices, it was an HQ for a resistance that wanted to kill you or the HQ of a cult that worshipped you. And it was amazing though I realize now it wasn't really much behind-the-scenes, basically akin to a simple lightswitch. But it was awesome then.

And of course, that's nothing compared to what games can do today with dynamic systems and worlds and interactivity...So take that Human Citadel area, blow it up into a whole wide open world full of all kinds of things that react to the player like those humans did in Soul Reaver.

I'm not sure what the story would be or how exactly evolution would work. Evolution would be a great element to include, both ability-wise and for the physical changes of the vampire. Will the game shove you into a free-for-all character customization screen at predetermined intervals? It's a way to go. Or maybe at these intervals, the game presents a limited pool of options based on gameplay choices. Like, you're big into melee attacks, you can choose big muscles or claws or something. Big on stealth, you pick from night vision or cloaking powers. Maybe you favor initiating combat with death-from-above style attacks, so you end up looking like SR-era Zephonim or something, speedy and climb-happy. Obviously, if player agency and choice in the evolution is a big gameplay mechanic, this character couldn't be Vorador. But one of his brood, why not, and he himself could still figure heavily into the plot.

You ravage through a given town, it becomes a hostile region. You defend or otherwise aid a different town, they basically bow to you. Could have a bunch of different systems like that, altering all sorts of things in the world based on gameplay, maybe some variations on karma systems (no multiple endings, purely just reaction-altering stuff or evolutionary changes). And where Soul Reaver had realm-shifting puzzles (which are still just as awesome today), a new game in the series could try some kind of Chrono Trigger-esque thing where different scenarios require diving into the timestream and toying around different eras to orchestrate solutions and such.

The possibilities are...Mmmm. :eek: (Can I get a drooling emote, please? Waterfalls out the mouth here. XD)

As I type this post and inadvertently get hyped for entirely hypothetical stuff that may not ever even be considered, I keep thinking of The Witcher series...

CountEyokir
2nd Mar 2014, 09:17
Ygdrasel - According to George, Dead Sun was an in-canon retcon - similar to the new Star Trek movies. Yes it took place n the far future but we'd have had some events altered, probably due to Kain messing with the timeline. I was referring to this and I am NOT a fan of this idea. I thought its protagonist was a bland copy of Raziel and its premise disrespectful to Soul Reaver.

I'm not sold on the idea of supporting Nosgoth and hoping that by itself it can revive the franchise as its meant to be. I have this fear any new fans that come in will be the multiplayer crowd and I doubt they'd be interested that much in something as deep and complex as the older titles. In order to generate interest for something like that we'd need something more in addition to this.

Yes, when I said some sort of RPG with a skill tree for Vorador the Witcher did come to mind for me. Another series for Vorador would be great. Soul Reaver was Raziel's story. Blood Omen was Kain's. 'First Born' for Vorador? That would be an awesome way to go I think.

Ygdrasel
2nd Mar 2014, 09:41
...How exactly is events altered in the timeline a problem when this entire series has been nothing but everyone and their giant evil squid altering events in the timeline? :scratch: An "in-canon retcon" ...A retcon within the canon. So...It's literally every game in the series. The entire premise of LoK is pretty solidly based in retconning whole chunks of history, if not entire timelines. (Sidenote: I love the new Star Trek movies...But I also don't like the original series [I prefer Picard, and a lot of the crew is meh...And I hate Shatner]. I kinda want the series rebooted alongside the films. >.>)

Dead Sun's protagonist could shift realms but that isn't a "bland copy of Raziel" anymore than Kain drinking blood makes him a bland copy of Vorador. Given all the history-altering basically subjects reality itself to constant turmoil, it wouldn't be a stretch to have the boundaries between the realms weaken enough to allow certain determined and knowledgeable entities to discover or develop a way to cross it at will. Melchiah was able to do so in short bursts and it's been suggested by fans (and not denied by any staff) that Kain's teleportation is actually a minor shifting ability too. Maybe the basic idea of "He can shift realms" was just ripping off Soul Reaver but seeing as that was the only real trait shared, there's plenty they could've done to avoid it just being a bland clone and make it a legitimate lore development. If anything, I'd argue the "They both share a certain trait therefore one is a bland clone despite nothing else that similar between them" mentality is far more disrespectful not just to Soul Reaver but to...Well, every fictional thing ever.


Well, obviously, Nosgoth alone is too different to restore the series proper...But we don't have anything in addition to it. Ergo, to get that something more in the first place, Nosgoth itself must first prove profitable. The new fans that come will either abandon it for other games - there are plenty of multiplayers out there - or dig into the lore and the series' history and find something worth staying for. Either way, new fans will come. Some will be the wrong kind, and they'll leave in time for some other multiplayer thing. The ones who stay, they're the ones who matter. But it basically has to start with Nosgoth because Nosgoth is all we have right now.

But if they did go the Vorador route, we'd get a great look at the Ancients too. Vorador was the first human turned after their sterility set in, wasn't he? Wonder if some part of it would be playing as a human Vorador...

Vampmaster
2nd Mar 2014, 11:14
There were only really three paradoxes and the second one didn't really alter much of the past. It only allowed Kain to survive and be present to set up the third one at the end of SR2.

Defiance didn't have any paradoxes because it was just playing out the consequences of the last one. Soul Reaver 1 wasn't altered, because young Kain set the timeline back on course when he dealt with the hylden in BO2. The devs has stated this in interviews. The parts about the Nemesis in BO1 weren't technically a retcon, because they were erased within the same game.

Razaiim
2nd Mar 2014, 18:45
To the guy that wanted a game after defiance to really finish off the story, Blood Omen 2 took place after Defiance, despite being released first.

Vampmaster
2nd Mar 2014, 20:22
To the guy that wanted a game after defiance to really finish off the story, Blood Omen 2 took place after Defiance, despite being released first.

All Kain has done regarding the EG and the hylden is bottled them up to deal with another day. Kain may be purified, but we didn't get to see what effect that had on the SR1 era if any at all. Even if the Pillar of Balance is no longer corrupt, it's still smashed into pieces and the world is still populated with devolved beasts rather than the sort of vampires Kain wanted to create. I mean, as far as we know.

Razaiim
2nd Mar 2014, 21:06
All Kain has done regarding the EG and the hylden is bottled them up to deal with another day. Kain may be purified, but we didn't get to see what effect that had on the SR1 era if any at all. Even if the Pillar of Balance is no longer corrupt, it's still smashed into pieces and the world is still populated with devolved beasts rather than the sort of vampires Kain wanted to create. I mean, as far as we know.

I believe since Elder Kain was purified, we won't witness any changes to the soul reaver era. I think Elder Kain would have to return to this time, andNosgoth's restoration would have to take place beyond this period, in order to avoid devestating the timeline even further. This might be the logic behind Nosgoth being shown as lush and thriving in the far future where Dead Sun was supposed to take place. With younger Kain's defeat of the Hylden, the paradox set in motion that lead to Blood Omen 2 seems to have been nullified, meaning the intervening years between Blood Omen and Soul Reaver should happen the same as before.

One thing I do wonder though, is how it came to pass that Vorador and his brood of vampires from Blood Omen 2, came to die out to be replaced by Kain's clans. Oooh new plot coming up: So after all ye events of Blood Omen 2, Vorador finds Kain's ego and arrogance intolerable, and threatening to Vorador's way of life, and sets in motion events using his descendants to bring Kain in line. However, Kain, being Kain, refuses to follow anyone but himself, and begins exterminating the Cabal and the over vampires. Meanwhile Kain learns how to create his own vampires, possibly from taking the knowledge by feeding on Vorador (kinda like gaining gifts from Blood Omen 2). The game ends with Kain raising the Lieutenants to begin his final rule over Nosgoth. (I don't know enough about Kain/Vorador dynamic to say if this conflicts with them, or if it conflicts with what Raziel knows about Vorador before meeting him).

Vampmaster
2nd Mar 2014, 22:43
I believe since Elder Kain was purified, we won't witness any changes to the soul reaver era. I think Elder Kain would have to return to this time, andNosgoth's restoration would have to take place beyond this period, in order to avoid devestating the timeline even further. This might be the logic behind Nosgoth being shown as lush and thriving in the far future where Dead Sun was supposed to take place. With younger Kain's defeat of the Hylden, the paradox set in motion that lead to Blood Omen 2 seems to have been nullified, meaning the intervening years between Blood Omen and Soul Reaver should happen the same as before.

Indeed. And that's why we need a conclusion. We need Kain to return to the SR1 era or beyond it to make sure the pillars are restored and to make sure the EG is destroyed or at least neutralised in some more permenant way. I think the best way for Kain to deal with the hylden would be to fold them into his empire as his new Lieutenants. Keeping his friends close and his enemies even closer, as he likes to put it.

Razaiim
2nd Mar 2014, 23:00
Indeed. And that's why we need a conclusion. We need Kain to return to the SR1 era or beyond it to make sure the pillars are restored and to make sure the EG is destroyed or at least neutralised in some more permenant way. I think the best way for Kain to deal with the hylden would be to fold them into his empire as his new Lieutenants. Keeping his friends close and his enemies even closer, as he likes to put it.

I don't know. The Elder God thought himself untouchable and omnipotent and omniscient. For a being like this, to be cowed so handily by Kain, could have been humiliating enough to take him out of the picture, now that his influence has been shattered, at least for many millenia until the new ruling races have forgotten Kain and his brood. Also I'd like to disagree with Kain folding the Hylden in. While Kain might be enlightened, he knows that the Hylden are still dangerous, and are not the same creatures that the Ancients banished. The Hylden are certainly not content with merely co-existing, as once they had access to the mortal world, they were intent on wiping out all other life. So Kain would either need to find away to finally bring about the extinction of an entire, nearly unfamiliar race, in another world that Kain most likely has little knowledge of, and the race in question has been further deformed by this realm, or just ensure the binding lasts and set about returning the pillars to vampire protectorship, if not necessarily re-claiming all of Nosgoth again.

Vampmaster
3rd Mar 2014, 00:22
The hylden aren't like a borg collective, they're individuals with different perspectives and different priorities. Some of them (the Seer for instance) must know that total genocide is a bad thing even for themselves. Those of them who aren't rulers might not be concerned with conquest/revenge and would serve the highest bidder (even a vampire) if it suited their own interests. If vampires like Faustus, Marcus and Sebastion would betray the vampires to the sarafan, surely there would be some hylden who don't want to serve the hylden lord. Some of them might be of the mindset that they don't care about revenge as long as they can go home.

Daniel mentions on his site that there would have been multiple factions all with different agendas and also proposed the idea that some hylden would preserve their own bodies and minds at the expense of more lower class hylden. Those might have higher hatred for the hydlen who tortured them for centuries than the vampires.

Razaiim
3rd Mar 2014, 00:32
Interesting, I never knew that last bit

Mnkymn89
3rd Mar 2014, 01:30
theres some good ideas here but personally im still hoping the next lok game after this is a continuation of defiance

Ygdrasel
3rd Mar 2014, 02:28
To the guy that wanted a game after defiance to really finish off the story, Blood Omen 2 took place after Defiance, despite being released first.


Blood Omen 2 did not finish the story. Finishing the story, by all evidence, would be killing the Elder God (or otherwise neutralizing him - for good) and somehow restoring vampire guardians to the Pillars. That is Kain's endgame plan, isn't it?

Of course, the story could continue beyond that but it would be stretching the whole "Legacy of Kain" moniker unless he returned again later.

Razaiim
3rd Mar 2014, 19:40
I don't know. The Elder God thought himself untouchable and omnipotent and omniscient. For a being like this, to be cowed so handily by Kain, could have been humiliating enough to take him out of the picture, now that his influence has been shattered, at least for many millenia until the new ruling races have forgotten Kain and his brood.


Blood Omen 2 did not finish the story. Finishing the story, by all evidence, would be killing the Elder God (or otherwise neutralizing him - for good) and somehow restoring vampire guardians to the Pillars. That is Kain's endgame plan, isn't it?


I already made my response about the Elder God being neutralized. I admit I don't know enough about the pillars to assume what state they're in once the purified elder Kain returns to his timeline (which I feel is the best he can do to avoid screwing more hooplah up), but I feel like it should be a relatively straightforward task compared to what he has acheived. Since Defiance left us with the Sarafan General and the Hylden beginning to enter the world, and Janos being possessed and abducted, these appear to be the last major events in the Legacy of Kain arc, which are resolved in Blood Omen 2.

Monkeythumbz
3rd Mar 2014, 20:04
I'm so sorry, I've been so busy elsewhere I've not really had a chance to spend much time on the boards lately. I'll block out some time tomorrow and will type up proper responses to your questions then. Apologies for the slow service!

Razaiim
3rd Mar 2014, 20:45
I'm so sorry, I've been so busy elsewhere I've not really had a chance to spend much time on the boards lately. I'll block out some time tomorrow and will type up proper responses to your questions then. Apologies for the slow service!

No worries, I know you guys can only really use your free time to look at the forums.