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View Full Version : which batman do you prefer the non killing batman or the batman from th dark knight r



MACGRUBER
24th Sep 2009, 02:55
THe dark knight returns batman by far is the most senseible he kills when he has to save lies. imagine if batman killed the joker how many lives would he save. in the dark knight returns he did what needed to be done.

Harvey_Twoface
24th Sep 2009, 03:03
To me. There is no Batman that kills. I wont accept it.

I like the REAL Batman, that one that doesn't take life because he saw his parents lives took right in front of him, and vowed to preserve it for everyone in gotham.

Hall E Woode
24th Sep 2009, 03:11
To me. There is no Batman that kills. I wont accept it.

I like the REAL Batman, that one that doesn't take life because he saw his parents lives took right in front of him, and vowed to preserve it for everyone in gotham.

I agree with you about liking Batman not killing.

But...remember this?

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2116/144/1600/q.jpg

Technically, it came before later rewrites. Batman did kill, originally. So...what's real? :confused:

Old_BenKenobi
24th Sep 2009, 03:16
THe dark knight returns batman by far is the most senseible he kills when he has to save lies. imagine if batman killed the joker how many lives would he save. in the dark knight returns he did what needed to be done.

Batman didn't kill in TDKR. He came close, but never killed.

MACGRUBER
24th Sep 2009, 03:17
yeah but it's laughable the logic batman uses. the joker has escaped the asylum about a hundred times and has killed tousands. If batman really wanted to do the right thing he would kill the joker and that's what frank millers batman inteded to do.

MACGRUBER
24th Sep 2009, 03:23
batman's not being able to kill the joker was a weakness and something he regretted for his entire life. He knew that his not being strong enough to do what needed to be done doomed thousands to thier deaths when he could have saved them. because for every time he lets the joker live hundreds more will die.

Old_BenKenobi
24th Sep 2009, 03:24
Miller's Batman didn't kill the Joker. He paralyzed him. Which was the best course of action IMO.

vuviper
24th Sep 2009, 03:31
batman's not being able to kill the joker was a weakness and something he regretted for his entire life. He knew that his not being strong enough to do what needed to be done doomed thousands to thier deaths when he could have saved them. because for every time he lets the joker live hundreds more will die.

It's hard to say whether killing or not killing takes more strength, it really depends on your own natural tendencies and desires, if batman really wanted to kill every time he sees even just a simple thug mugging random innocents (which I suspect he does) then it takes much more strength of character to do that. If he was one of those people that have difficulty pulling a trigger even thought they personally think its the right think to do, and is able to kill anyway, then killing takes more strength.

I think if batman was to kill someone, but continue his mission, or continue his mission but change it to allow himself to kill, he'd also hate himself and think of himself as a monster. Kinda like vampire batman, but he actually was a monster....

MACGRUBER
24th Sep 2009, 03:31
I know he didnt kill the joker. He didnt have the guts to do it. when he finnaly had his chance he still couldnt do it. he was once again reminded of the thousands he could have saved. The joker taunts him for this. This little characterization of batman was one of the reasons i liked the story and i feel that this part of batman is underutilized

vuviper
24th Sep 2009, 03:33
I know he didnt kill the joker. He didnt have the guts to do it. when he finnaly had his chance he still couldnt do it. he was once again reminded of the thousands he could have saved. The joker taunts him for this. This little characterization of batman was one of the reasons i liked the story and i feel that this part of batman is underutilized

I feel like that actually happens a lot, at least in hush...and this game... and the dark knight maybe, don't remember

MACGRUBER
24th Sep 2009, 03:38
never once refered to it in the game.

MACGRUBER
24th Sep 2009, 03:43
yeah thats a good point. in the mask of the phantasm alfred tells bruce that every day he is closer to falling into vengence and hate and being consumed by it. If batman were to kill it might throw him over the edge. But the joker is not a mugger. he murders thousands. if batman were to kill him he would save thousands of lives even though that would lead him down a slippery slope.It's what needs to be done. of course batman is just a comic and besides what fun would it be without the joker.

Hall E Woode
24th Sep 2009, 03:47
never once refered to it in the game.

Actually, yes. Joker offered Batman the chance to off him. Batman seriously considers it, but quickly refrains. For CGI, I thought Batman's eyes very thoroughly communicated something deep.

MACGRUBER
24th Sep 2009, 03:50
[QUOTE=Hall E Woode;1188820]Actually, yes. Joker offered Batman the chance to off him. Batman seriously considers it, but quickly refrains. For CGI, I thought Batman's eyes very thoroughly communicated something deep.[yep I just got pwned although i wish it would have been touched on more.

Old_BenKenobi
24th Sep 2009, 03:53
yeah thats a good point. in the mask of the phantasm alfred tells bruce that every day he is closer to falling into vengence and hate and being consumed by it. If batman were to kill it might throw him over the edge. But the joker is not a mugger. he murders thousands. if batman were to kill him he would save thousands of lives even though that would lead him down a slippery slope.It's what needs to be done. of course batman is just a comic and besides what fun would it be without the joker.

If Batman killed Joker, he fears that he will give into the psychotic monster that lives within him, and he will find another justification for killing another person. Then another. And so on.

MACGRUBER
24th Sep 2009, 03:56
If Batman killed Joker, he fears that he will give into the psychotic monster that lives within him, and he will find another justification for killing another person. Then another. And so on.

good point.

ThatGuyHarris
24th Sep 2009, 04:21
If Batman killed Joker, he fears that he will give into the psychotic monster that lives within him, and he will find another justification for killing another person. Then another. And so on.

Exactly. Once he crosses the line how does he ever go back? It's not a simple, "I'll kill this guy because he's bad and that's it." What would keep him from killing Zsasz to ensure he doesn't go on another rampage or any other deadly villain in his rogues gallery?

Matches Malone
24th Sep 2009, 04:41
Batman didn't kill in TDKR. He came close, but never killed.

Yes he does, shot a mutant to save the child hostage. Look it up. He did it bc it was the only way to stop the child from dying, perfectly sensible and and epic moment.

vuviper
24th Sep 2009, 04:55
Yes he does, shot a mutant to save the child hostage. Look it up. He did it bc it was the only way to stop the child from dying, perfectly sensible and and epic moment.

Only perfectly sensible if you think thats how his moral values work. It could be that he sees killing as such an evil act that it should never be commited not to save his life, or even hundreds of others. What makes sense morally depends on what you value, if he just simply valued life, then he would be able to kill the joker or other mass murderers. But if the taking of a life is more of a moral tragedy than letting someone die or has more absolute value than preservation of life, he wouldn't

actually even if you value life simply and quantitatively(1 life= 1 life, no quality involved), he might not be able to justify killing joker. yes the joker as killed many, but he could only justify killing him if he was absolutely certain that he would kill again.

Old_BenKenobi
24th Sep 2009, 05:08
Yes he does, shot a mutant to save the child hostage. Look it up. He did it bc it was the only way to stop the child from dying, perfectly sensible and and epic moment.

He didn't kill the guy, he shot him over his head.

TheCool202021
24th Sep 2009, 05:09
Exactly. Once he crosses the line how does he ever go back? It's not a simple, "I'll kill this guy because he's bad and that's it." What would keep him from killing Zsasz to ensure he doesn't go on another rampage or any other deadly villain in his rogues gallery?

I totally agree with u man, honestly i think I'd be highly dissapointed if i found out that Batman killed anyone. i mean to me Batman wouldnt be who he is if he were a killer, it would completely contradict everything he says, and go against everything that Batman stands for. Even though the Joker has killed so many, and caused so much pain towards Batman, whether it be by killing Jason Todd or by paralyzing Babara Gordon, Batman knows in his heart of hearts that it is not for him to decide when the Joker dies, therefore he cannot bring about the Joker's death

Matches Malone
24th Sep 2009, 05:09
Only perfectly sensible if you think thats how his moral values work. It could be that he sees killing as such an evil act that it should never be commited not to save his life, or even hundreds of others. What makes sense morally depends on what you value, if he just simply valued life, then he would be able to kill the joker or other mass murderers. But if the taking of a life is more of a moral tragedy than letting someone die or has more absolute value than preservation of life, he wouldn't

actually even if you value life simply and quantitatively(1 life= 1 life, no quality involved), he might not be able to justify killing joker. yes the joker as killed many, but he could only justify killing him if he was absolutely certain that he would kill again.

Yes but it was 1 life or the other either way someone would die. It was a direct kill or let someone die situation which really hasn't happened a whole lot Batman usually finds a way around it but this time it was his only option and he chose action.

angleslam99
24th Sep 2009, 05:15
To me. There is no Batman that kills. I wont accept it.

I like the REAL Batman, that one that doesn't take life because he saw his parents lives took right in front of him, and vowed to preserve it for everyone in gotham.

Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, every Batman movie ever made pretty much.

William
24th Sep 2009, 12:10
He didn't kill the guy, he shot him over his head.

Yeah I never saw any bullet holes in the guy, so how did batman take out the guy by shooting over his head?

Drazar
24th Sep 2009, 12:22
Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, every Batman movie ever made pretty much.

Murder = Intentional.

Batman doesn't murder people in Nolan movies. While you can argue on Ras' al ghul. He just didn't care to save the villain from the area, it's been done a done in comics aswell and i never saw people complain there. (Hush is the person Batman left unsaved twice)

Old_BenKenobi
24th Sep 2009, 14:46
Murder = Intentional.

Batman doesn't murder people in Nolan movies. While you can argue on Ras' al ghul. He just didn't care to save the villain from the area, it's been done a done in comics aswell and i never saw people complain there. (Hush is the person Batman left unsaved twice)

It could be argued that not only did Batman not save R'as from the train, he was also responsible for destroying the tracks and making sure the train gets destroyed. It's like in TDKR, where Batman throws the guy through the window, and tells him he's the only one that can get him to a hospital in time (obviously that's a much more ruthless and direct example)

And he also killed Harvey Dent in TDK.

Drazar
24th Sep 2009, 15:30
He didn't mean to Murder Harvey Dent. So Ofcourse while Batman will blame himself for Harvey's downfall or what. He didn't murder him or anything.

I mean thats the thing with Batman and his morals. It has its flaw points as Joker points out. In Joker's eyes Batman did KILL Rachel Dawes as he had to choose one of them. And before he mentioned that, i do believe he did the mockery Batman voice and said "tonight youre gonna break your one rule"

So yeah it all depends on the point of view at the very end.

Old_BenKenobi
24th Sep 2009, 15:51
I think he murdered Harvey Dent. He didn't want to, but he knew what he was doing. He knew knocking him off the ledge would kill him.

I still think he should have Bataranged his hand or snuck up behind him.

vuviper
24th Sep 2009, 16:12
Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, every Batman movie ever made pretty much.

I wouldn't really use the movies to characterize batman

BatLamb
24th Sep 2009, 16:14
NO he didnt kill the Joker,the Joker kills himself with his last bit of strength in DKR....Batman never kills intentionally...NEVER...even in DKR he is brutal as hell,but never kills..the WHOLE reason he doesnt kill is so no one has to suffer what he suffered as a child....

Lanarian
24th Sep 2009, 17:53
I always figured it this way...
"You cannot defeat your enemy if you become him"
Batman doesn't kill because he doesn't want to become the thing he hates.

vuviper
25th Sep 2009, 05:07
NO he didnt kill the Joker,the Joker kills himself with his last bit of strength in DKR....Batman never kills intentionally...NEVER...even in DKR he is brutal as hell,but never kills..the WHOLE reason he doesnt kill is so no one has to suffer what he suffered as a child....

He kills as a Vampire, yes it is not in continuity but neither is DKR and you felt you had to address that.

Prince Daka
25th Sep 2009, 06:55
I remember Batman killing several men in the 1943 15-chapter serial, & that was of course based on the original 1939 Batman from Detective Comics. I didn't mind him killing gangsters, but now that there are so many villains I enjoy seeing, It would be a shame if Batman killed any of them. Certainly movie adaptations of Batman are free to make decisions to have a villains killed if it fits the story. In Batman 1989 Joker died at the hands of Batman, but it was fitting since the story was changed to have Jack Napier the gunman of Thomas/Martha Wayne. Two-Face & Penguin are killed in the movies in an act of self-defense, but I do recall Bruce showing regret for killing Joker when talking to Robin. Batman should not kill, but I could understand that Batman is not perfect & mistakes will be made & when they are made Batman does feel very bad about it because he is a mature crime-fighter.