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jayjay119
1st Sep 2009, 16:54
Hey guys, I was just playing TRU and was getting irritated by constantly having to spend ages in the menu reading journal entries to understand the story. It got me to thinking hwo in every game Cd has made (TR game obviously) the story has been expanded in different ways. For example, the story was pretty much expanded over the headset with Zip and Alistair, which was a great system but not really a TR thing. TRA had cutscenes which were unpopular with fans so the medium was again changed in TRU. TRU for me had the worst system,you had to spend ages, frequently reading journal entries and the cut-scenes seemed pointless to be there.

However I feel that my method could be acceptable, I liked the use of the camera in TRU, it made sense that Lara would have one to record what she finds but the cut-scenes where she uses it are short and pointless. So I figured that it could be expanded, we could give lara back the camera earpiece that she had in Legend but not for communicational purposes. It would be used for of a dictaphone as it were where Lara would say her thoughts (which were her written journals in TRU) aloud into the mouthpiece and recording scenery with the camera (which could then be re-viewed at any time in the menu) to expand the story. But what do you think? How should the story be expanded?

dark7angel
1st Sep 2009, 17:04
I think that's a good idea!
To be honest, I didn't read most of the journal entries in TRU, 'cause I wanted to keep going further in the game and didn't want to loose time reading the entries...
I like the cutscenes in TRA and in the other TRs (I don't really know why they were unpopular! Was it because some were interactive???)
Anyway, your idea does sound cool, if done the right way :thumb:

Jurre
1st Sep 2009, 17:18
3 possibilities:

- Earpiece with Z&A talking back - the Legend way
- Lara narrating over the gameplay - the Prince of Persia way
- Having another character walk along from time to time - the Uncharted way.

These are the methods of storytelling that have proved themselves. I wouldn't want it in any other way.

Please leave those journals out... they're not intersting. Also please try to develop an interesting story yourselves instead of quoting textbooks about the Maya and Vikings. You proved to be able to do that, don't let it down now...

Gemma_Darkmoon_
1st Sep 2009, 19:08
Didn't like the way TRU told the story with the camera.

I liked having headset contact with zip and Alister though maybe they overused it too much. A few short cutscenes might be nice in levels but not ones that give away an ambush.

angelus0901
1st Sep 2009, 19:28
I really loved the earpiece she had in Legend... I was really sad when I saw they removed that in Underworld... My vote goes to earpiece! ;)

a_big_house
1st Sep 2009, 21:01
earpiece/camara/journals.... SORT THE STORY AND GAMEPLAY OUT FIRST!!!

josh1122
1st Sep 2009, 21:56
I don't know,shes supposed to be young, I'm assuming this pre-dates anything TR 1/TRA related since shes not the Lara she'll eventually turn into. I think its going to be some horribly generic sci-fi/paranormal storyline...

''there are ghosts and demon like creatures on this island! we must find a way to break the curse and set their spirits and souls free for good!''

lol :mad2:

nikkinickels
1st Sep 2009, 23:37
they should have more puzzles, and more places to explore and a lot more trophies and interactive cutscenes
hopefully lara will have more moves as well :] and A LOT of people/monsters to fight. and all that slowmo stuff when she jumps on her enemies and whatnot

anything to make the game extremely challenging so that it takes us weeks to complete :P

Randy 54
2nd Sep 2009, 00:29
Part of the puzzle in Legend was trying to figure out what Zip was talking about through that headset. His voice was a constant mass of garbled static so he really didn't have any positive influence for me. I would dump the two-way conversation and go with the camera and dictation. Seriously speaking though, Tomb Raider needs to move on to a new storyline and leave mom and dad's memories in the photo album.

Error96_
2nd Sep 2009, 00:53
I really loved having the ear piece in Legend. Whilst I am normally a TR traditionalist I thought the ear piece added a fresh new aspect to the game. I liked that a lot. Might not work so well without Alister and for the new game an earpiece wouldn't fit well with a creepy island.

Anniversary told the story well. For me Underworld told the story the worst. Very bitty and the to camera stuff wasn't impressive. I would really like to see a more empowered Lara story back. Where she is determined to find an artifact or place and less of the emotional family stuff.

There are very different types of story to the games. Most TR's have a very simple story of Lara going against rivals to find a treasure. Simple but very effective. I quite liked having the darker revenge motive to AOD and although AOD failed in some aspects of gameplay it's story was beautifully deep. TRU brought many seperate stories but maybe didn't combine them enough to give a strong central story. For a creepy island maybe TRA style story telling with a more simple motivation would work best.

Pulse
2nd Sep 2009, 00:59
Headset baby!!!

I loved the headset in Legend. I'm more into playing games with other people and with TR you can't really do that, so the headset was good. The whole let's be secluded while playing a game about a woman alone makes for very, very blah times :p if that makes sense

I missed the headset in TRU and then was really happy when it was in BTA, but then when I played it Zip said like 3 freakin sentences outside of cutscenes, which he was extremely quiet in as well.

I'd also like longer cutscenes to get the story across. They are a nice break from the action even if they're full of action. :p if you can understand that

Also Interactive cutscenes are great. They were in RE5 right? and other games, so i think TR should continue to have them.

josh1122
2nd Sep 2009, 01:28
This is another thing about us fans in general, Fans when Legend came around got mad because there was a head set and that she was never really ''by herself'' like the ''old'' games and they lost the sense of alone-ness and scary atmosphere. So long time fans got angry with that, now when the headset is taken out(in TRU), fans are mad that the headset is gone.

No one is ever going to be pleased lol

d1n0_xD
2nd Sep 2009, 09:19
I really loved the headsets in Legend....And Lara narrating sounds like an awesome idea !! :D

Max 28
2nd Sep 2009, 09:38
Interesting idea jayjay the Lara dictating thing. I'm not sure about it though, I feel divided that it could go good or bad. I think it could turn out badly if it ended up like Underworld when in a cutscene Lara would pull out her camera and to me seemed too much like she was talking to herself cause she gets lonely in the tombs and was going slightly crazy. But in the classic TRs like TR:4 when Lara would come across heiroglyphs she'd read and then makes so remarks as asking and answering her own questions and that seemed to work.

I am actually another fan of Legends headset. I agree that at points they could point out solutions to problems that made them too easy but I think Alister and Zip helped to develop Lara and the story when they had discussions about myths and legends, artifacts, and the banter brought out Lara's clever wit which I enjoyed. I also have to say to josh's post above that I think it's pretty normal to have divided fanbases. It's not like everyone who was against it suddenly changed their minds, just at times you here more from either of them. So it's a challenge that not just game developers but for many products that you can't please everyone. But not that no one will ever be pleased.

I also think that TR:A told the story well with the cutscenes, I didn't even no people were unhappy. If we are talking about the next TR concerning the leaked concept I think that this will be the best way to go. I guess it could be an appropriate place to be narrated by Lara looking back on her first expedition but I think the constant draw back from the action and suspense will let down the scary and mysterious feeling. But that maybe isn't a bad thing, I quite like hazing thoughs moments to bring Lara out of the isolated feeling.

Bampire
2nd Sep 2009, 09:38
(Not a fan of the headset.)

The journal has been a tradition in the TR games, recording what happened to her, and it being a loading method.

As you can see, each time you die in a certain level you see a new sketch be placed onto the journal, in the Core games. That was interesting, and one thing I think that helps make TR unique in it's own ways.

Honestly, I want the Journals to stay in the TR franchise, and I find nothing wrong with it. Other then the fact that it's all 'fact base' in the game. It's only speaking of what and why certain things are there, and what Natla's been up to, pretty much. It gives you the idea of what is going on. Though, the cutscenes alone tell you what is going on, and I don't get how you'd get confused by them.

Lara's looking for closure of her mother. She doesn't know what happened, so she's on a journey to save someone who she thinks is still alive, wouldn't you? Though, unfortunate events happen and the Doppleganger arrives again in the story, then you have Amanda and Natla Collaborating.. Though there's something wrong with the collaboration.. Natla is playing Amanda like a puppet. Luring in Lara, eventually getting revenge which ends up to become a failed attempt, let alone failed attempt to get her "utopia".

Lara finds her mother, finally has her closure. Amanda and Lara fight together for a bit, then Lara stops Natla from summoning Ragnarok. She ends successful. Amanda and Lara are still at eachothers throats, but gain a small sliver of trust and make it out. The end.

jayjay119
2nd Sep 2009, 13:41
It's nice to see that there are plenty of ideas here, even if some are a little off topic lol. However I just wanna make clear that when Lara dictates her thoughts it would not be in a cut-scene, it would be in game like in Legend and it would just be background information like in the TRU journals that expand on the main ideas.

I see what people mean about the headset being unsuitable for this game though with it being set pre-TR1, however it doesn't have to be realistic to that extent. It could be experimental equipment from somewhere, I'm sure they didn't have floating boards in the 60's (MGS3) and Silent Hill 1 is being remade with nothing less than an iphone in it... now I always imagined Silent Hill 1 to be set in the late 70's early 80's!

LARALOVERnr1
2nd Sep 2009, 13:47
its a nice idea, but the easyest way is to come up with a whole new storyline, so 'new raiders' can understand that and future TR-games.

MissJess
2nd Sep 2009, 15:08
Interesting topic. I myself am not a big fan of the earpiece. I just dont find it to be "Tomb Raider-ish."

But when I play Legend, I feel the earpiece fits with the Legend atmosphere perfectly. It's a very action-y game with lots of shooting and noise, so the voices over top of that blend in and dont feel out of place. But I can't imagion Zip and Alister in say, Tomb Raider 2, it would be (and feel) tottaly wrong.

I guess it just depends on what they are going for in this next TR 9. From what I've heard, it's set on an island with creatures from Silent Hill, and a small inexperienced Lara. Being on an island, I hope hope they try to go for the isolated feeling of the older games/anniversary, so, no earpiece. I like the journals. in the future Tomb Raider's though, I feel they should only use it for supplying extra facts about the current mythology or whatever. If I could choose any way though, I guess I'd go with having Lara record her voice on that recorder-thing or just say stuff out loud. I dont know.

Tihocan
5th Sep 2009, 07:35
In terms of 'expansion', I'd like (and if it's already explained, I apologise) to find out why she carries two guns like that. But in any case, rather than expansion I'd like to see a whole new arc in her life, something not covered in other games.

In terms of storytelling, I'd be much more favourable to the 'thinking out loud' and perhaps writing in a journal in times of lull - if any.

Miscelleaneous-ly, I had a vision of seeing the 'architecture' of puzzles. How to explain...
Ever see CSI? I want to see the ingenuity of ancient devices - how cool would it be to see the internals of a water hoist when Lara activates it, or the metal pins of a massive wooden combination lock tumbler sliding into place?

JRod108
6th Sep 2009, 04:18
Personally, I was always on the fence about the earpiece. I liked having the feeling of someone talking occasionally so I wouldn't get freaked out, but I hated some of the stuff they said and the times Zip and Alister decided to butt in. Say for instance, the line "this must be where Santa's evil brother lives". If i remember correctly, not only was that line completely lame and cheesy, but it also popped up at the most random time...

I think that it should be a mixture of a headset at certain times and places like a beach where you could get a nice signal and not in a jungle with all the trees to get in the way and Lara just narrating the story. Like she should talk to her self occasionally, not to the point where she seems mildly insane but when she sees something interesting or something like that.

I like the journals. I don't think that it should have to be mandatory to read them in order to understand the story, but more like they should recap past levels and hold interesting trivia. Other than the things I've brought up, I don't think TR needs a revamp in the story part of the game as much as other things. Please have more interesting and complicated puzzles. Make them hard. And for the love of God, PLEASE upgrade the combat. I'm getting a little off topic lol. I don't think we're going to see much of the headset in TR9 if the origin rumors are true so I think that Lara's probably going to just talk to herself and write in journals.

jayjay119
6th Sep 2009, 14:33
Personally, I was always on the fence about the earpiece. I liked having the feeling of someone talking occasionally so I wouldn't get freaked out, but I hated some of the stuff they said and the times Zip and Alister decided to butt in. Say for instance, the line "this must be where Santa's evil brother lives". If i remember correctly, not only was that line completely lame and cheesy, but it also popped up at the most random time...

I think that it should be a mixture of a headset at certain times and places like a beach where you could get a nice signal and not in a jungle with all the trees to get in the way and Lara just narrating the story. Like she should talk to her self occasionally, not to the point where she seems mildly insane but when she sees something interesting or something like that.

I like the journals. I don't think that it should have to be mandatory to read them in order to understand the story, but more like they should recap past levels and hold interesting trivia. Other than the things I've brought up, I don't think TR needs a revamp in the story part of the game as much as other things. Please have more interesting and complicated puzzles. Make them hard. And for the love of God, PLEASE upgrade the combat. I'm getting a little off topic lol. I don't think we're going to see much of the headset in TR9 if the origin rumors are true so I think that Lara's probably going to just talk to herself and write in journals.

I agree, that seems a good way to go. Personally I wasn't a fan of the earpiece as a communicative piece of kit, It felt to unlike TR with endless dialogue spoiling the atmosphere, but I liked it in the Japan level, in a city level it is realistic and would have liked a few more tech puzzle's that zip could have helped with like in the VCI section of chronicles.

Andy64
6th Sep 2009, 16:16
I really like the earpiece with Zip and alister talking to you. Think thaty is great. Lara talking to herself and the video camera was rather annoying and a poor way to tell the story. Journal entries should be there only as a minor extra rather than a main part of the story or game.

As for other things on story I think TRU was a bit of mess for the way the Natla and Doppleganger story ended. Legend was quite good for it. I hope they make a story that fits together well. For puzzles I think more level integrated Core style puzzles are needed. Again for me TRU was a disaster on puzzles but TRL quite good.

Combat is something that needs upgrading. Lara was very agile and great at dodging in the Core games. Lara is less mobile in combat now and that means she often just stands about while being shot at. That needs upgrading a bit. Either more dodging or more targeting and hope they don't go mad on melee.

Vboy1810
6th Sep 2009, 17:24
I think there should be two games, One for hardcore fans and have been there since the first game, and new comers for players who have just played the new ones like Legend,Anniversary and Underworld. The two games shouldnt be drastically different cuz it wont be fair, the levels should just be different and the storyline should be the same.
For hardcore fans, the puzzles would be harder and its possible to get "lost" in the levels. and the hints shouldnt give it away

For new comers not too hard but if they get stuck the hints should very helpful and a warning sign could come up saying "Your about to show a hint"

It might take a long time and that might irritate everyone but it would build anticipation.

or instead of two games its all in one game and you have to choose the first time you open it.

Jurre
6th Sep 2009, 17:35
I think there should be two games, One for hardcore fans and have been there since the first game, and new comers for players who have just played the new ones like Legend,Anniversary and Underworld.
Same idea came across me but the publisher would never do that. Not just Eidos, not any publisher.
No, either they'll make a choice or they'll keep making compromise-games who'll probably satisfy most people but feel halfbaked to the hardcore members of both sides...

JRod108
6th Sep 2009, 19:46
I think there should be two games, One for hardcore fans and have been there since the first game, and new comers for players who have just played the new ones like Legend,Anniversary and Underworld. The two games shouldnt be drastically different cuz it wont be fair, the levels should just be different and the storyline should be the same.
For hardcore fans, the puzzles would be harder and its possible to get "lost" in the levels. and the hints shouldnt give it away

For new comers not too hard but if they get stuck the hints should very helpful and a warning sign could come up saying "Your about to show a hint"

It might take a long time and that might irritate everyone but it would build anticipation.

or instead of two games its all in one game and you have to choose the first time you open it.\

But what about those of us that want elements from both the old and the new games? I want harder puzzles and more complicated levels and at the same time, I want the Legend combat style to be upgraded. Specifically, the ability to aim manually. Making two versions of the same game won't solve anything, in my complete and honest opinion. Many of the old school fans want an older style game, but at the same time, I think they would be dissapointed if they got exactly what they wanted. I'm not saying that I think they don't know what they want, rather, I get the impression that while they want TR to go back to it's roots, they also want some upgrades made to the game. Same thing with the newer fans, while many of them liked the more combat oriented CD games, I have also seen posts indicating that nearly all of them want a more challenging game in terms of levels and puzzles. Making two games that are the polar opposites of each other would make more problems than it would solve them, IMO.

PS, Welcome to the forums Vboy1810 :wave:

Randy 54
7th Sep 2009, 00:10
To keep everyone happy, what if the headset function was an option off the menu? Use it if you want it or otherwise the player can use the journal option.

Andy64
7th Sep 2009, 00:32
All these idea's are too complex. Different ways of doing things like headset, one Core style game and one new style. It seems unrealistic, expensive and unlikely. For the island game the headset dosn't fit the spirit nor really pieces to a handheld camera. Cutscenes or Lara talking may be best to tell the story. Elements of Core and Crystal games as well would be great.

Max 28
7th Sep 2009, 03:23
I've been thinking more about it and am liking the idea more of Lara recording herself. It may seem a bit "Note to self..." on a tape recorder kinda thing but also like when you see in movies doctors making audio notes on speciemins or discoveries, so they can continue working while taking down notes. I can see Lara as she's shimmying across the ledges making observations on the wildlife and enemies about their weaknesses and attacks and so forth. This could also be made in the hint system which could be viewed as either good or bad I guess.

But even for players like me who don't enjoy the constant isolation feeling all the time I'd would quite like to hear Lara make remarks. Cause if I was raiding, I'd probably end up talking out loud to break the silence, with rmarks like "There, that should do it". So like when we get Lara to finally make it to the top of the waterfall and where we'd think in that relieved tone "Finally" she'd say it. Or, the low level curse that we'd voice when something goes wrong, didn't make the jump, get hurt and have no medi packs kind of thing.

JRod108
7th Sep 2009, 04:54
That's a good idea, Max. Though, I think it's going to be hard to incorporate anything besides Lara speaking to herself and journals if the rumors about TR9 are true. I'm not sure if I like the idea of being totally isolated. Bioshock scared the crap out of me with all the insane people singing to themselves... Underworld wasn't bad mostly because their wasn't ever any atmopheres or enviroments that were suspensful IMO but with the supposely leaked concept arts of the new enemies... I liked the headset in that it brought Lara's wit out. I don't think it should have been used as much as it had been but I was amused by it every once in a while. CD could improve on it by making the dialogue more bearable and use some common sense on where it can and cannot be used. How on Earth was Zip able to get a signal to Lara underground? I like the ideas of Lara narrating the story as long as it isn't to the point where we're all questioning her sanity. Maybe Lara could be writing in her journal and we can hear what she is writing like she is speaking inside her head? Idk, there seems to be many ways to do this but that's the problem. CD could implement any of the ideas we have come up with but why do I get the feeling that they'd over do it and whatever system they come up with would crash and burn?

Max 28
7th Sep 2009, 05:16
Going with the narrative would work if Lara was re-telling the story. That'd be kinda cool for the game, like we don't see Lara at the start but the camera is set behind her shoulder so we see that she's there and her voice is talking to someone, don't know who, sitting on the couch opposite listening. Then it would fade into the game with her voice still sounding and we've gone back into old history.

When playing through the game we may stop at points and are brought back to Lara's voice recounting or even back to the room and Lara may move, but we still don't see her completely lke she walks over to the window and we the camera sits at her hip level outside the window catching her hand in the frame but still being focussed on her guest.

At the end after concluding her story and the game we are opened back to Lara and her guest. The guest could have made remarks at points I guess or may speak for the first time now and have some lines of "Yes, yes this is it. You see Miss Croft, the (names the artifact that the game's story centered around) has turned up again, in Egypt." And after only seeing glimpses of our heroine the camera spins slowly to face Lara as she gets that adventurous determined look on her face as she knows that her next expedition has arrisen and thus opens us to the next game in the series.

Plus because the game is a supposed re-vamp to the series we mat be expecting a new Lara model. So the whole 'only glimpses' of Lara will play on the fact that fans are eager to see our new Raider that will take takes us though the next line of games. Almost an incentive don't you think? ;)

Tihocan
7th Sep 2009, 06:05
I'd be interested to see how time progresses in this open world. Night time? I think it would be cool to see Lara writing in a journal by a campfire, or something.
I get the feeling that Lara will be very isolated in this new environment, so a headset or whatnot may not be useful - but I could be wrong. I like the digital camera in Underworld, made it look like she actually had an interest in the place, rather than portrayed as a gung ho graverobber.

I'd prefer that cutscenes were few, and small cuts when something awesome happens, e.g. control is lost for a few seconds for Lara to take in the beauty of the world from a high vantage point, but then regained seamlessly in play.

I think a bunch of remarks in random places could be cool, but may either be executed poorly or be overused - and could be a risk.

Gr8guy
7th Sep 2009, 14:26
I think the whole headset thing in legend was excellent, it must come back!
Also i like the journal thing , but not always :)

Flintmelody
7th Sep 2009, 14:47
I would love to see headset with Alister an Zip back. No chance of that happening. Jornal seems a bad way to tell the story in that I just want to play the game and not spend time reading journals to understand the story. The reflections of Lara on the islands events seems too much like the reflections in Chronicles.

Lara talking out lound but not to a hand held camera seems great with some more of Lara's whitty type remarks like in Legend. Maybe Lara finds some ancient writing on the island to explain the islands story and she can read it out loud.

jayjay119
7th Sep 2009, 18:28
@ Max, I really like both of your ideas especially the second one of Lara looking back which could lead to a sequel before the game has even begun, like flintmelody said it is like the reflections in Chronicles but I think that it would be a really great way to tell the story in this game considering it is a look back into Lara's past, and who better to tell a story from Lara's past than Lara herself?

BlackThor
7th Sep 2009, 21:50
I really loved the earpiece she had in Legend... I was really sad when I saw they removed that in Underworld... My vote goes to earpiece! ;)

same

miss_L
8th Sep 2009, 00:37
Hmmm...

You can't get atmosphere without enough background information
That's what brings the story alive

The original TR's brough the story alive every time you had a cutscene - and seriously, if you havent seen the cutscenes from TR1 they are masterpieces, each one. TR1 cutscene images that have stuck with me for over 10 years, literally. Not only that, but when they were advertising TR3 they actually stuck in cutscene videos from TR1 which was utterly sad.... its like Core knew TR3 just wasn't as good, even if they won't admit it

anyway, the difference between cutscenes then and now was that back then the cutscenes were a MUCH higher graphic quality. It's like you were being shown a glimpse of the REAL Lara while playing the low res version during the game. Now however, cutscenes often show the same graphic quality as the game so it gets annoying to have to watch something you feel you otherwise could be playing.... still...

how do you get the storyline and extras in there? 1. use cutscenes with dramatically improved graphics so its like a reward to get to watch them
2. the journals were okay, I liked reading them in the slow spots
3. eh, I don't know about a dictophone, seems like it would slow eveything down even more
4. people or objects nearby shoudl provide the background info. ie. lara finds a mysterious rock, looks at it, reveals information about the surrounding areas and mythology. Just the way it would happen if you were alone in the woods and had the expertise to recognize these things. Even better was if this was a common reward, like instead of the reward medipacks you usually find hidden in hard to find places, there are objects that are easier to find with some history to it and you get to learn about it in a voice over as soon as Lara picks it up.

Andy64
8th Sep 2009, 01:15
I agree with Miss_L about TR1 cutscenes being incredible. The script was so well written. Snappy, memorable and to the point.

I wouldn't say as much that story and atmosphere are connected. I would say environment and atmosphere are more connected. I was playing TR2 Golden mask recently and thought the atmosphere was incredible compared to TRU. In golden mask it felt like you were geting through layers progressively deeper and every one was dark and mysterious. Terrifying with bits of Nathan's music and enamies that made sounds and terrified you when they came from the darkness.

This is the game that can recapture that fear. More suprise attacks, more surreal mysterious dark areas, and more short panic music tunes used prior to the attack. Let the fear tell the story and a few bits of Lara talking in amongst.

jayjay119
8th Sep 2009, 16:35
Personally I thought the cutscenes and FMVs in TR4 are the best that the series has seen so far in terms of storytelling and graphics... they were some of the most beautiful stuff i have ever seen, the detail was amazing and just shows the capability of the PSone, I have yet to see any graphics that rival those cut-scenes.

nikkinickels
9th Sep 2009, 01:22
i think ways to get the story out in the next game is that lara could end up finding villages, and meet up with people who tell her what happend with this and that. i think she should get caught again like in the chronicles, and we have to get her to escape, that'd be awesome, and maybe even rescue someone that knows a lot about the next artifact. there's no chance for an earpiece to come back since the story takes place before anniversary which was way before she got the headset in legend.
i'm really hoping for some swinging too, vine swinging :O oh and finding items in the forest or where ever she is, and have to combine the items she finds to make that weapon or get through a puzzle :]

JRod108
9th Sep 2009, 02:39
I think introducing some new, fresh characters could add wonder to the story. NO MORE RECURRING VILLAINS!!!!!! *Cough Natla cough, cough* CD needs a new and believable villain (Amanda was a horrible villain in my complete and honest opinion and Rutland was just a space filler) I want someone to hate. I want to be glad that I defeated a villain, not dissappointed. I wanted to be the one that crushed Natla's head with the hammah! Good characters can do wonders for a story. We can hardly expect Lara to do EVERYTHING even though it seems like she can lol. Even the amazing Ms. Croft has limits.

Max 28
9th Sep 2009, 03:38
@ Max, I really like both of your ideas especially the second one of Lara looking back which could lead to a sequel before the game has even begun, like flintmelody said it is like the reflections in Chronicles but I think that it would be a really great way to tell the story in this game considering it is a look back into Lara's past, and who better to tell a story from Lara's past than Lara herself?

Yeah thanks. :) I think it could go wrong with the voice over interupting and drawing you ought of the action but maybe becuse if it is all on one island it could give a bit more of a feel of multiple locations if we switch back to her manor. And leading to a sequal it will be able to provide another adventure just for an adventure, but to keep a running story which I think is needed. Like Core didn't do that well enough for me, the games stories were too separated, but CD have kept the smae story too much. More like The games are part 1, 2 and 3 of the same adventure. So the games need to lead into each other and connect with returning allies and refering to past games but having different expeditions like Core did.

I think villains can come back. Not as the main villain every time but say a more backround character from a past game that maybe stood by the old villains side, got away when Lara defeated the big boss and comes back now in charge or something. I thought it worked well in Underworls how after Legend Amanda had been the main villain, then she comes back and we first hear of her and think she'll be the same in this game but turns out she's now working for someone else. Actually it was the same with Rutland and Amanda in Legend. :hmm: But if it went the opposite way like I said it would change it up I guess.

JRod108
9th Sep 2009, 03:53
I agree in that characters CAN return, however, it needs to be done right. With TRU, I didn't get a sense of satisfaction as I stated earlier, I wanted to defeat Natla, not some cutscene. I'm not against recurring villains, however, I do not like the immortal kind that just keeps coming back! It needs to happen rarely and when it does happen, let the player be able to defeat him/her for God's sake... Besides that, I think TR9 needs fresh, new characters. The TRL, TRA, and TRU trilogy is over and done with and I think it's time to move on to something completely new. I also want to see CD develop their own (good) villain (Amanda and Rutland do not count IMO). Somebody with some depth, not a psycho goddess with a self-destroying obssesion over ending the world, not a whiny goth chick (Boohoo, everybody left me in that tomb, boooohooooo:rolleyes:) and most definitely not some rich guy that doesn't even seem to have his own agenda. Just some mindless brat playing with his daddy's money. :rolleyes:

Jurre
9th Sep 2009, 09:12
Somebody with some depth, not a psycho goddess with a self-destroying obssesion over ending the world, not a whiny goth chick (Boohoo, everybody left me in that tomb, boooohooooo:rolleyes:) :
She could have been a person with depth if they had continued the story that was setting up in Legend: that she was being taken over by the demon when she pulled the alienskull-like stone from the wall. But like many other good story elements it was swept aside in TrU. I will never forgive them for that...

jayjay119
9th Sep 2009, 10:35
She could have been a person with depth if they had continued the story that was setting up in Legend: that she was being taken over by the demon when she pulled the alienskull-like stone from the wall. But like many other good story elements it was swept aside in TrU. I will never forgive them for that...

It was sort of wasn't it, the wraith stone didn't have the same effect on her in TRU, unless that the way she was in TRL was due to prolonged exposure to it... anyway the whole possessed enemy thing has been done before, TR4 Set takes over Von Croy anyone? To be honest aside form giving her, her own game that explains her backstory from the Peru flashback of TRL to TRU she would never really be a good character as she has as much background as Lara which she doesn't have the time to have explained. A Good villain doesn't have to have reams of info surrounding them to be a good antagonist. Take Natla for example all we know is that she used to be one of 3 ruler of Atlantis and wants to destroy the world and you... motivation and depth gained.

I really wish CD would get off this kick of expanding every character's backstory and personality. Lara is ok because its her game but we don't really need it of supporting characters or Enemies, its was Amanda's past that stopped her from becoming a decent bad guy in my opinion, in stead she was just a whiny brat who was probably suffering from post traumatic stress disorder!

Jurre
9th Sep 2009, 11:43
Sometimes you shouldn't look for explanations in the story, but in the crappy scriptwriting. In my opinion the whole left-me-alone-in-the-cave thing was something she made up, the true reason was because she was possessed. It was never said, but the story strongly hinted towards it. Then in U all of that has gone and the l-m-a-i-t-c thing does become the real reason. Its obvious to me that the whole Underworld story was done by a different (and untalented) scriptwriter who had no idea about the deeper layers of Legend whatsoever. The Underworld story isn't even a story in my opinion, but more of an anti-story: its quite simply the eradication of everything that was established in Legend! No more headset, no more Allister, no more King Arthur, no more mum story and on and on and on. Did I mention that I will never forgive??
Nothing new was established in Underworld itself, except of course the stupid-ass Doppleganger the Second, a little more boring than its predecessor now that it had skin...

I believe a character, especialy a villain, does not neccisarily have to have a backstory to be interesting if it is an extravagant type. The villains from Heavenly Sword for instance don't have much of a background, but they're so extravagant and flamboyant they're funny to watch.

If I had to choose what kind of storytelling Tr should follow I'd say the cinematic way like Uncharted: except perhaps with conversation that is of a little higher intelectual level and less irritating smartassness. (Although: when Lara does that its funny, when Drake does that I want to hurt him.)

jayjay119
9th Sep 2009, 12:07
Its obvious to me that the whole Underworld story was done by a different (and untalented) scriptwriter who had no idea about the deeper layers of Legend whatsoever. The Underworld story isn't even a story in my opinion, but more of an anti-story: its quite simply the eradication of everything that was established in Legend! No more headset, no more Allister, no more King Arthur, no more mum story and on and on and on. Did I mention that I will never forgive??

I don't know whether it was written by different writers but the gaps in the plot were certainly due to the fact that the story was not written in its entirety from the beginning, Epic Lindstrom verified this in a TRU interview claiming that it was for flexibility, However if you don't plan a story of that size from the beginning you are bound to end u with plot holes all over the place! Say what you like about AOD, but the story in that was and would have been epic as it was planned from start to finish and that it probably why fans cry for its continuation so much, because the story is actually already there, if it had been said to be stand alone then i honestly believe there wouldn't have been as much fuss as there is about it.

Personally I do believe that the story was mapped out from the beginning, however it had to be changed as CD were forced to work on TRA in between TRL and TRU. I really believe that had TRA not been made by CD and they were allowed to work on TRU straight after then the story in TRU would have connected to the TRL one so much better, I certainly believe Natla would not have been in it if they had not made TRA.


If I had to choose what kind of storytelling Tr should follow I'd say the cinematic way like Uncharted: except perhaps with conversation that is of a little higher intelectual level and less irritating smartassness. (Although: when Lara does that its funny, when Drake does that I want to hurt him.)

That's because Lara is not a smartass, she is just smart and knows she is therefore she is allowed to be sarcastic and witty and it pulls off, Drake however tries to act alot smarter than he actually is and ends up looking like a smartass which akes you want to hurt him!

Flintmelody
9th Sep 2009, 13:11
I agree in that characters CAN return, however, it needs to be done right. With TRU, I didn't get a sense of satisfaction as I stated earlier, I wanted to defeat Natla, not some cutscene. I'm not against recurring villains, however, I do not like the immortal kind that just keeps coming back! It needs to happen rarely and when it does happen, let the player be able to defeat him/her for God's sake... Besides that, I think TR9 needs fresh, new characters. The TRL, TRA, and TRU trilogy is over and done with and I think it's time to move on to something completely new. :

With you on that. The TRL, TRA, TRU era is over and we kind of need a brand new story. I think origins can bring that. TRU's story was kind of all wrong. If you are going to introduce big characters like Natla and Doppleganger at least let us fight them. I like characters returning (Maybe Sophia Leigh survived again Lol.) but it's got to be done right.


I don't know whether it was written by different writers but the gaps in the plot were certainly due to the fact that the story was not written in its entirety from the beginning, Epic Lindstrom verified this in a TRU interview claiming that it was for flexibility, However if you don't plan a story of that size from the beginning you are bound to end u with plot holes all over the place! Say what you like about AOD, but the story in that was and would have been epic as it was planned from start to finish and that it probably why fans cry for its continuation so much.

Agreed. TRL was brilliantly written and TRU's story should have been better considering that. Whilst many aspects of TR AOD were poor it's story was incredible. Very layered deep and epic. I would love to see it continued. A deeper story to a CD game would be nice but maybe the island isn't the time to do that though.

Jurre
9th Sep 2009, 13:12
I don't know whether it was written by different writers but the gaps in the plot were certainly due to the fact that the story was not written in its entirety from the beginning, Epic Lindstrom verified this in a TRU interview claiming that it was for flexibility, However if you don't plan a story of that size from the beginning you are bound to end u with plot holes all over the place! Say what you like about AOD, but the story in that was and would have been epic as it was planned from start to finish and that it probably why fans cry for its continuation so much, because the story is actually already there, if it had been said to be stand alone then i honestly believe there wouldn't have been as much fuss as there is about it.
I agree a story that begins and ends in one game has much more garantee to be cohesive and plotholeless, but I don't think a story that is spread over several games is bound to be inconsistant. A good example of that is Crysis and Crysis Warhead: they where even made by different studios in different countries and yet they were totaly cohesive.
So it is possible I think if they really have some heart for the story and I think that's what the scriptwriter of TrU lacked. And that hurts because I myself relished the Legend story, I think its the Apocalypse Now of the gaming world, the most outstanding gamestory I've ever seen.

Agreed with the other comments.

JRod108
9th Sep 2009, 15:27
With you on that. The TRL, TRA, TRU era is over and we kind of need a brand new story. I think origins can bring that. TRU's story was kind of all wrong. If you are going to introduce big characters like Natla and Doppleganger at least let us fight them. I like characters returning (Maybe Sophia Leigh survived again Lol.) but it's got to be done right.



Agreed. TRL was brilliantly written and TRU's story should have been better considering that. Whilst many aspects of TR AOD were poor it's story was incredible. Very layered deep and epic. I would love to see it continued. A deeper story to a CD game would be nice but maybe the island isn't the time to do that though.

On the contrary, sometimes the games with the least are the games with the best story. Once again, though, it has to be done right. Bioshock had a good story and all it had was you, a random guy talking to you, and various creepy journals from dead people giving you clues as to what happened to the city and lots of insane people. It really creeps me out... TR doesn't need to have all these random and unneeded characters. Just Lara, maybe Zip and Winston, and one good villain. With the origin story, it only has to be Lara and the villain. That's it. No more. Nothing else is needed.

Jurre
9th Sep 2009, 21:40
On the contrary, sometimes the games with the least are the games with the best story. Once again, though, it has to be done right. Bioshock had a good story and all it had was you, a random guy talking to you, and various creepy journals from dead people giving you clues as to what happened to the city and lots of insane people. It really creeps me out... TR doesn't need to have all these random and unneeded characters. Just Lara, maybe Zip and Winston, and one good villain. With the origin story, it only has to be Lara and the villain. That's it. No more. Nothing else is needed.
I strongly disagree. What works for a first person shooter does not work for a third person action adventure. Its a very different approach to the story. Every modern succesfull game from the latter catagory has invested a lot in character development and supportive characters. Look at like Prince of Persia, Heavenly Sword and Uncharted. They would never choose the Bioshock style, and Bioshock would never choose their style.

JRod108
9th Sep 2009, 22:23
Story telling is story telling whether it be in a book, movie, or videogame. I honestly don't think it matters what kind of genre the game is, rather, what kind of story you're trying to tell. Another example: in Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II (KotOR II) you are stranded on the very first planet trying to escape. You only have 3 companions. One doesn't speak a language and the other two leave all the exploration to you rarely speaking to you at all if ever. You are left to explore by yourself and you find out what happened and why everyone of the station is dead through, once again, journals. KotOR II is an RPG unlike Bioshock. Also, Bioshock, the first level of KotOR II and TR9 all have one thing in common: you are stranded with no means to contact the outside world. Having a limited number of characters would make a better story IMO, especially if the rumors about TR9 are true.

I get the impression that TR9 is trying to be a survival/horror game. It really can't do that if you have other characters to spoil all the horror aspects and it can hardly be survival if you have a billion mercs dropping a billion health packs around.

IMO, the only thing that matters in story telling is the genre of the story. All survival/horror entertainment share the same themes. Whether it be FPS, RPG or platformer. If they have the same genre of story then they will probably share many of the same story telling styles.

Jurre
9th Sep 2009, 22:55
Story telling is story telling whether it be in a book, movie, or videogame.A book-story does not fit in a movie, and a movie-story not in a vidoegame. That's why so many book-based movies fail, as well as movie-based games.

I haven't played the Star Wars game so I can't say anything about that. However, for the reasons you list I dislike the idea of Tr 9 becoming a survival horror on a
lonely Island. Survival horror works best, if not only in my opinion, in first person and to let her being completly alone on an Island with noone to interact with is I believe the stupidest mistake possible.... Unless Keely Hawes got laryngeal cancer or something...

JRod108
9th Sep 2009, 23:22
When Hollywood buys the rights of a book they usually don't focus on adapting the story to a movie format. Not like they used to. It's all special effects for them. So, it'll look good, but they'll butcher the story. I watched To Kill a Mockingbird last year believe it or not, it made sense!!! :eek: I agree that most book based movies suck but that's mostly because Hollywood is releasing a crap movie because they know the fans of the book are going to turn out no matter what. It's laziness, not that it's impossible to adapt a book into a movie. Most movie based videogames suck because the games are usually released at the same time as the movie and it's rare to see a movie based game to be in development more than a year or two and so the devs rush out a crappy, unfinished game.

I'm not against having some crazy, superstitious villagers in the game to talk to Lara, when I said that I didn't want anything more than Lara and a villain, I was referring to major characters. CD just seems obsessed in having all the characters have extensive back stories. I don't care that Zip is a chef. Why are you focusing on that instead of gameplay?

Jurre
10th Sep 2009, 18:08
If pushing buttons was all that mattered I might as well go play Space Invaders. The good thing about games today is that they are more and more becoming interactive movies. Why watch a movie if you can be in it, control it? That I think is the main reason why I, and perhaps many people, don't like gamemovies - it feels like a step back from the original experience.
So now that games are becoming interactive movies they have to follow the same rules of what makes a good movie and character development is one of those things.
I don't care either that Zip is a chef (I'm a little confused by the way, wasn't he an ex-inmate according to another bio?) but I did enjoy the conversations and discussions he had with Allister & Lara. For a modern game those things are simply indispensable. Imagine Uncharted with no supporting characters and the protagonist being alone all the time. You think it would be as great a succes as it is now?

JRod108
10th Sep 2009, 21:13
I like Space Invaders. :p It's not as good as Galaga but I liked the remake on the PS1...

I don't know what you mean by gamemovies. Do you mean a movie based on a game or a game based on a movie? :confused:

I've never played Uncharted.

I liked the Zip/Alister and Lara relationship to a certain extent. However, I think that it is time for something new. No more TRL, TRA, TRU story arc. It was good but I want something different...

Jurre
10th Sep 2009, 22:02
I don't know what you mean by gamemovies. Do you mean a movie based on a game or a game based on a movie? :confused:
The former. From an interactive movie to a movie: its a step backwards...

JRod108
10th Sep 2009, 23:38
Oh... Yeah, I agree, though, I would like to see a Halo movie, mostly because the Chief doesn't talk all that much in the game and I would like to see if they would change that for a movie. Other than that, I don't like watching movies based on games. I'd rather crush the bad guy than watch some random Hollywood star do it for me. It feels so... wrong... like it was missing something...

Vboy1810
20th Sep 2009, 10:14
I have this idea of a new villain but he doesnt seem like one and he is stuck on the island too, the villain could also be the main one in the next game.