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View Full Version : The Nameless Mod: Can DX3 learn from it?



teknikal-vision
16th Aug 2009, 15:19
Ok, yes I admit it. I am a completely unashamed fan and supporter of Off Topic Productions’ brilliant Deus Ex mod, The Nameless Mod.

If you haven’t played it (and every self-respecting Deus Ex fan should to fill the void until DX3) you need to know it is the next best thing to a Deus Ex sequel worthy of the original game.

It never cuts down or holds back on the brilliant game design set by Deus Ex, instead it expands upon it. It even delivers on a lot of the promises Deus Ex made but never lived up to.

For example, in Deus Ex you never got the choice to stay with UNATCO until the very end. You never got the chance to suck up to Page and Simons, be permanent buddies with Gunther and Anna or be the one who storms Paul’s New York apartment to make sure the killswitch did the job it intended to do (as much as I love Paul, I would have liked to have told him and his NSF buddies to get stuffed!)

Well in TNM you do get to choose whether to stay with your old friends, or go against them and side with the self-proclaimed bad guys. There are 2 completely different story arcs with completely different missions depending on which of the 2 major factions you affiliate yourself with. As expected, some endings wont are available to you based on your earlier choices. Basically TNM is a whole game more than DX already. In DX we only get a slightly varying same story with a different ending each time we play.

And the little details are brilliant too…


I have hands! Forgot to bring along your trusty nano sword? Whip out your fists and start punching!
Infinite light aug. Once upgraded you no longer have to worry about your light aug sapping all your bioelectric energy. Best aug-upgrade ever.
Molotovs. Finally a definite use for all the surplus of wine bottles and fire extinguishers that were so abundant in Deus Ex!
EMP gun. There’s nothing more convenient than accurately disabling a bot or camera from a great distance. EMP grenades seem redundant thereafter.
The unconscious have yet to die. This made you that much more aware of your actions. Some mission parameters had success depend on you not having any casualties No more tossing bodies off of high ledges or into water, or not accounting for stray grenade blast waves, without any negative results.
Printing documents. No more freaking out as you scour through emails, searching for the one that carries that essential password or log-in details as the ICE breaker times out in the corner. Just click print and a document will be deposited at the nearest available network printer for you to add to your note log. Nice
Command-Prompt Hacking. Us PC gamers are so damn lucky. What better way to represent hacking than with actual hacking? Thank you deep, immersive and intricate gameplay mechanics. Thank you keyboard!


So if you have played it...

Can DX3 learn from it?
Should it learn from it?
(to EM – ARE you learning from it? LOL :P)

Well after playing TNM, my expectations from DX3 are higher than ever.

teknikal-vision
16th Aug 2009, 15:38
Judging by what we've seen so far, it would really surprise me if they added anything to the game inspired by TNM or Shifter.

Me either. But I thought I'd try to get everyone voicing some attention to the fact there's even more evidence now that Deus Ex's original design model doesn't need drastic changes.

They just need to add to what's originally there and polish the rough diamond.
(in bringing up Assasins Creed2's design direction over AC1,; the wider variety of things you can do the better!)

Blade_hunter
16th Aug 2009, 15:46
I'm not sure of this but it seems in Deus Ex 3 we have unarmed combat, also most people on this forum wanted it
For the rest I hope they will learn something from this mod

There is some cool options also I loved the gloves we can wear in the game who provided some different effects ^^

dixieflatline
18th Aug 2009, 00:54
The biggest area the Deus Ex 3 dudes could learn a lot from Nameless Mod is in mapping and level design.

After playing the Nameless Mod, it struck me how important good map and level design was to the success of the original game. The maps/levels made Nameless Mod feel more 'Deus Ex' to me than Invisible War did.

Actually as far as I'm concerned, the team should hire whoever made most of the maps for the Nameless Mod.

I know perhaps I'm too pessimistic about Deus Ex 3, but I'd be shocked if the maps are anywhere close to being as good as they were in the Nameless Mod.

Jerion
18th Aug 2009, 02:37
Maps close to those in TNM have never been so greenlight!

What the hell does that even mean? :scratch: I get what your meaning is, but when you just look at the sentence...

minus0ne
18th Aug 2009, 02:49
What the hell does that even mean? :scratch: I get what your meaning is, but when you just look at the sentence...
I think he was alluding to that other thread with the odd syntax ;) Although amazingly it's yielded a good bit of solid info!

Jerion
18th Aug 2009, 03:05
I think he was alluding to that other thread with the odd syntax ;) Although amazingly it's yielded a good bit of solid info!

Yep! Stir up enough questions about something and René is guaranteed to step in and give some kind of answer.

Trestkon
18th Aug 2009, 04:32
That was a rather nice ego boost, tek! Your enthusiasm is most excellent:D


For example, in Deus Ex you never got the choice to stay with UNATCO until the very end. You never got the chance to suck up to Page and Simons, be permanent buddies with Gunther and Anna or be the one who storms Paul’s New York apartment to make sure the killswitch did the job it intended to do (as much as I love Paul, I would have liked to have told him and his NSF buddies to get stuffed!)

To be fair, the whole "two completely different story arc" thing isn't really feasible for a AAA game. Publishers aren't going to be too keen on spending bucket loads of money on so much content that could easily be wasted on a large portion of the audience. That's not to say we won't (and I hope we do!) see some real choices with real consequences in DX 3, but probably not to the ridiculous extent that we were able to take it to in TNM.

Ninjerk
18th Aug 2009, 15:11
That was a rather nice ego boost, tek! Your enthusiasm is most excellent:D



To be fair, the whole "two completely different story arc" thing isn't really feasible for a AAA game. Publishers aren't going to be too keen on spending bucket loads of money on so much content that could easily be wasted on a large portion of the audience. That's not to say we won't (and I hope we do!) see some real choices with real consequences in DX 3, but probably not to the ridiculous extent that we were able to take it to in TNM.

To be fair, Eidos wasn't too keen on spending bucket loads of money on the shadow stealth engine, but Warren Spector thought the 10% of their possible audience that would enjoy was worth the extra money. I wish I could find the video that he says that in.

teknikal-vision
22nd Aug 2009, 14:26
That was a rather nice ego boost, tek! Your enthusiasm is most excellent:D

To be fair, the whole "two completely different story arc" thing isn't really feasible for a AAA game. Publishers aren't going to be too keen on spending bucket loads of money on so much content that could easily be wasted on a large portion of the audience. That's not to say we won't (and I hope we do!) see some real choices with real consequences in DX 3, but probably not to the ridiculous extent that we were able to take it to in TNM.

Hey Larry ^_^ Yeah you know me... Can't keep my mouth shut :P

I know its not entirely feasible for a industry developed game, but I hope they try and avoid the choke points that Deus Ex forced us into (especially after Warren Spector was adamant they would not do this).

I mean there's nothing more annoying than not being able to escape the capture of the MJ-12 in Battery Park or tell Paul you don't believe him. It's obvious money will always determine how much they are able to do, but I hope we get more chances to express ourselves and avoid having to follow a set movie script.

Many thanks to you and everyone at OTP for avoiding this problem as much as possible (even openly adressing this issue when you kill Scara which is always a good laugh :) ) Yay for the freedom of independant development!


To be fair, Eidos wasn't too keen on spending bucket loads of money on the shadow stealth engine, but Warren Spector thought the 10% of their possible audience that would enjoy was worth the extra money. I wish I could find the video that he says that in.

It is worth it. I think publishers just want any excuse they can find to not use the development budget on areas they deep pointless. Games like Oblivion and Fallout 3 offer heaps of gameplay content for player freedom, they just don't tie this freedom of choice together as well as Deus Ex does, or to the same narrative depth that Deus Ex has. The same amount of content is there in most games, it's just randomly slapped together.

And I also think publishers don't give gamers enough credit when it comes to how we play or how much time we spend playing. If the opportunity is there, players will take it. Fable 1 and 2 is enough evidence of that. Most people replay or play these games endlessly. Heck you can play Fable 2 forever. Same goes for Fallout 3 and Oblivion.

No more excuses. T_T

Ninjerk
22nd Aug 2009, 17:58
Fallout 3 had a lot of promising concepts in it, but I can't think of one of them that they balanced well or finished.

Dead-Eye
23rd Aug 2009, 00:11
Spoiler Fallout 3:
Fallout 3 would have been the best game in the last 5 years if you could have saved your dad. Sadly they tried so hard and yet failed to be as good as Deus Ex. It's even evident in Fallout 3 that a lot was inspired by Deus Ex when you meet president John Eldon. Kind of funny that they missed the most impotent part to implement player choice.

On the topic of TNM. I really don't understand what all the hype is about on this mod. Sure it's the first Deus Ex mod to have full voice acting and it had a few hacks to the game play that are welcomed additions. (although I don't like that they took out the swimming skill.) It's still just a larger continuation of the same game play that Deus Ex had. Maybe I just can't see what everyone else sees in this mod, but from my prospective it's the first mod form Off Topic Productions and it is a good mod that illustrates knowledge of the key concepts that Deus Ex showed can be done with video games. However I do not think the game is revolutionary. I still think Zodiac is a far better Deus Ex mod when we're talking about what Invisible War should have been. And Redsun 2020 was a lot more surprising then TNM.

The Nameless mod is vary good at what is dose do, and is worth a good rating for that. However I never found anything revolutionary or inspiring about it's design that changed my ideas of what a game should be. So I really don't understand why some people are saying that TNM is "a candidate for Game of the Year" and "It's really showing professional game developers what a game should be."

All the aspects that are in this game are easily expressed in Deus Ex. Maybe the 4th wall barking moments aren't in Deus Ex, but they have been done before in other games so it really isn't something new. I did find the plot to be quite original so there are points for originality, however the gameplay is mostly the same as Deus Ex it just takes the best ideas form invisible war, adds some new guns, a few features and implements them all into TNM. Remember Passive Augmentations(I.E. Infinite light aug) and "the unconscious have yet to die" where both ideas that were implanted in Invisible War, and I agree that they should be implemented in Deus Ex 3 along with the other things listed in the first post.

I just don't think that TNM is "showing professional game developers what a game should be." and I really don't think that the DX3 team can really learn a whole lot from TNM because I believe they are already DX fans and understand most of the ideas expressed in the original game and are already implementing them into DX3. All we have really complained about for the last few mouths on these fourms are the game play ideas in DX3 which do seem to miss some marks, however I highly drought the team is getting much wrong when it comes to "co-authorship" which is one of the key ideas Warren Specter developed and implanted in Deus Ex. I'm fairly sure DX3 will hit the mark when it comes to it's plot line and implanted co-authorship and will be surprisingly good when it comes out.

Maybe it could be said that TNM shows that there isn't anything really wrong with the game play of Deus Ex and that the changes that are being implemented in DX3 sound a bit too drastic. However TNM is one of the hardest single player games I have ever played. TNM (at lest v1.0) is too hard for your average gamer. This to me shows that we need to compromise when it comes to gameplay in DX3. Somewhere there is this magic place where Fans arn't too unhappy and the game is easy enough that Edios can make money off the game.

All the DX3 team needs to do is find this sweet spot we're fans aren't too unhappy and Edios can still sell the game to n00bs. It's somewhere between System Shock 2 and Bioshock.

gamer0004
23rd Aug 2009, 07:27
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that revolutionary features like auto-heal make games worse? TNM is almost perfect in what it does: creating an intelligent immersive funny and exciting game. And that is extraordinary.

rokstrombo
23rd Aug 2009, 12:46
I felt that one of the most impressive aspects of TNM was the story. I think it's incredibly clever that not only did OTP create a compelling dramatisation of an existing online gaming community, but they managed to adapt it into a full-length Deus Ex game! It's a concept that's been hidden in plain sight for years, and they sacrificed a perfectly good Deus Ex game just to try it out. I found it to be a huge relief from the hackneyed, bloated, action-movie-inspired storytelling we usually have to put up with in order for a publisher to justify investing in a AAA game (usually another sequel). It was also hilarious and very detailed.

I think that what publishers could learn from this is that a surprising number of gamers have grown cynical and are craving some variety in terms of design philosophy and scope.

El_Bel
23rd Aug 2009, 18:33
They could, they won't.


/thread

Daedalus.
23rd Aug 2009, 19:28
Maps close to those in TNM have never been so greenlight!

I think it is a bot.


.

Ninjerk
24th Aug 2009, 15:57
I felt that one of the most impressive aspects of TNM was the story. I think it's incredibly clever that not only did OTP create a compelling dramatisation of an existing online gaming community, but they managed to adapt it into a full-length Deus Ex game! It's a concept that's been hidden in plain sight for years, and they sacrificed a perfectly good Deus Ex game just to try it out. I found it to be a huge relief from the hackneyed, bloated, action-movie-inspired storytelling we usually have to put up with in order for a publisher to justify investing in a AAA game (usually another sequel). It was also hilarious and very detailed.

I think that what publishers could learn from this is that a surprising number of gamers have grown cynical and are craving some variety in terms of design philosophy and scope.

I was partly involved in a similar effort years ago in a music community. The game was to be made in RPGMaker2k I think, and it utterly failed. Kudos to the team.

@some post above: Not being able to save your father in FO3 was the least of that game's issues. The overall plot was a Frankenstein monster of events and poorly used plot devices from the first two Fallout games and was ultimately contrived (purifying the water at the end of a polluted river, not to mention the ******* ocean on the other side).

I was going to go into it about FO3, but I'm way too tired.

Dead-Eye
25th Aug 2009, 10:57
I was partly involved in a similar effort years ago in a music community. The game was to be made in RPGMaker2k I think, and it utterly failed. Kudos to the team.

@some post above: Not being able to save your father in FO3 was the least of that game's issues. The overall plot was a Frankenstein monster of events and poorly used plot devices from the first two Fallout games and was ultimately contrived (purifying the water at the end of a polluted river, not to mention the ******* ocean on the other side).

I was going to go into it about FO3, but I'm way too tired.

If you consider what fallout 3 is, then consider what Fallout 3 could have been by simply changing this one key aspect of the game; I think it's safe to say it would have been an extremely *better* game.

As a side note I never played Fallout 1 or 2 so I don't know how the plot devices where poorly used.

El_Bel
25th Aug 2009, 11:36
There is a thing that its called *edited out*?

What the ****, they are on the list of the best games ever alongside with Deus Ex and System Shock!!

Dead-Eye
26th Aug 2009, 02:06
I don't pirate games. However they have just been added to steam, but currently I'm broke.

PlasmaSnake101
26th Aug 2009, 03:42
I felt that one of the most impressive aspects of TNM was the story.

Disagreed, when I played it I knew you were not "supposed" to side with a certain faction. The factions are either good or evil. If it wanted a really great story then both factions should have had their pros and cons. The online community isn't really reflected apart from character's usernames and the game reminding you you're in an imaginary forum land.

I have only gotten half way through, now I'm busy with school. But so far, I wasn't impressed. Apart from that it was a really fun game. Also, it crashes a lot, at least for me.

gamer0004
26th Aug 2009, 08:59
Disagreed, when I played it I knew you were not "supposed" to side with a certain faction. The factions are either good or evil. If it wanted a really great story then both factions should have had their pros and cons. The online community isn't really reflected apart from character's usernames and the game reminding you you're in an imaginary forum land.

I have only gotten half way through, now I'm busy with school. But so far, I wasn't impressed. Apart from that it was a really fun game. Also, it crashes a lot, at least for me.

?

I really like both WC and PDX... You in fact are supposed to side with one of the two factions... I don't really get what you're saying.

El_Bel
26th Aug 2009, 11:15
I don't pirate games. However they have just been added to steam, but currently I'm broke.

Well i said buy them afterwards, when you get the money. We should buy good games! Torrents are just extensive demos.

Red
26th Aug 2009, 14:15
Wait, you don't have 12$?

teknikal-vision
27th Aug 2009, 05:52
?

I really like both WC and PDX... You in fact are supposed to side with one of the two factions... I don't really get what you're saying.

Yeah the whole point is that there is no "correct" storyline. It's up to you to decide who you like, whom you trust and who you want as your allies. You get 2 versions of the same story that each offer a different point of view. On my first playthrough I was inclined to stay with PDX because I really liked the friendship with them. My friend on the other hand joined up with WorldCorp on his first go 'cause he liked Scara B King because he's such a jerk. It's all a matter of personal preference.

Deus Ex would have been the same if they had more production time and more money. We never actaully got to choose whom we wanted to side with. The story just forced us into betraying UNATCO and siding with Paul, which was a shame.The siding with UNATCO story would have been just as valid and interesting as breaking away from UNATCO. Imagine the personal conflict between Paul and JC? That would have been awesome drama. :D

ArcR
28th Aug 2009, 14:14
I was going to write an angry review about The Nameless Mod but instead I'll try it again on normal difficulty after applying the patch.

First playthough = :mad2: :nut:

Trestkon
30th Aug 2009, 15:14
Oh my. Never, EVER play TNM without at least the 1.0.2 patch. Better yet, wait a few more days and try it with the 1.0.3 patch.

Freddo
30th Aug 2009, 18:34
I tried The Nameless Mod, but all it's inside jokes pretty much killed it for me and it didn't take long until I stopped.