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dani
7th Aug 2009, 22:08
Stealing items and money from/by NPCs in Deus Ex 3. What do you think about it?

PlasmaSnake101
7th Aug 2009, 22:30
Stealing items and money from/by NPCs in Deus Ex 3. What do you think about it?

No. Then you'd have to factor in a guard/police force like in Oblivion. Unless you know the unconscious like in Deus Ex 1 then I'm against it.

SageSavage
7th Aug 2009, 22:40
Well, it would not be the easiest feature to implement and it would require some good balancing but I've said it before: if you could steal keys/access cards/data cubes from NPCs, that would add a whole new dimension for people who want to ghost through the game.

dani
7th Aug 2009, 22:50
No. Then you'd have to factor in a guard/police force like in Oblivion. Unless you know the unconscious like in Deus Ex 1 then I'm against it.

I think more about Fallout / Fallout 2 kind of stealing. If the NPCs will notice an attempt to steal than they will react to this. How they will react depends on the type of NPC. They may also inform the police if available. Some characters will use force. Stealing will depend on the stealing skills.

3nails4you
7th Aug 2009, 23:17
That's what I love about DX. Some random guy in the middle of nowhere says "I've got all this I can sell to you for ridiculous prices," without at all realizing I may have no moral qualms about using a tranquilizer dart on him and taking it all for free. Poor sap ;)

As far a conscious people, I don't know if there's a good way to implement this short of third-personing the whole game and making the game a lot more complicated/causing other gameplay elements to lose attention and quality.

Blade_hunter
7th Aug 2009, 23:41
Well, it would not be the easiest feature to implement and it would require some good balancing but I've said it before: if you could steal keys/access cards/data cubes from NPCs, that would add a whole new dimension for people who want to ghost through the game.

This ^

Really just like commandos 2 when you use the Thief to a guard

Hertzila
7th Aug 2009, 23:46
I was completely okay with this until I saw that "skill" thing and understood that you meant pickpocketing (at least I think you mean pickpocketing, since that's the only kind of stealing where a skill makes sense). I was thinking you meant more like DX1 Paris-like burglary where you simply pick or shoot your way inside and get anything you want but if a police sees you he will start shooting at you (or at least try to detain you) and most likely you shoot him and then every darn cop of the map is after you. But pickpocketing... I'd say no, this isn't Thief (which I do like) or Elder Scrolls. Edit: Or Commandos for that matter, even though few of its tricks would be nice in here.

K^2
8th Aug 2009, 00:11
That's what I love about DX. Some random guy in the middle of nowhere says "I've got all this I can sell to you for ridiculous prices," without at all realizing I may have no moral qualms about using a tranquilizer dart on him and taking it all for free. Poor sap ;)
Same here. Except, I never use tranquilizer darts, baton, stun prod, or the like. Higher body count means fewer potential obstacles in the future.

IOOI
8th Aug 2009, 00:43
That's what I love about DX. Some random guy in the middle of nowhere says "I've got all this I can sell to you for ridiculous prices," without at all realizing I may have no moral qualms about using a tranquilizer dart on him and taking it all for free. Poor sap ;)


Second this.

3nails4you
8th Aug 2009, 01:40
Same here. Except, I never use tranquilizer darts, baton, stun prod, or the like. Higher body count means fewer potential obstacles in the future.

Knife to the back of the head works well, too.

IOOI
8th Aug 2009, 04:02
The only thing I don't mind is stealing abandoned or unguarded objects (bags, purses, briefcases...) in public places (stations, banks, coffeeshops) and some apartments...
Imagine you're beeing pursued by the police/agents/black-ops and you need to withdraw some money from an ATM. In this case you shouldn't make use of your own personnal account in order to avoid detection/tracing, so like in DX you should use someone else's account. So you have to steal some credit chips/cards and hack an ATM or manage to get the code. But if you're not good at hacking you may as well try selling what you've found - there must be a (black) market for it or pawnshops.
Of course stealing has its consequences. For instance in the places where you used to steal there should be an increasing number of Police force, depending on how much thefts you've commited (it should increase constantly and be permanent, so it's not like GTA where the minute you leave the area the alert status drops to zero) - and if you're on a stealing rampage the final stage by the Police forces (or headhunter) should be a setup/frameup, like "planting" a purse with a tracking device or with an alarm (maybe this could be scripted in some locations/areas of the game).

This is one area that could be improved over DX's gameplay. It would be nice to see some "awareness" from the game - for any action you'd make, there should be a proper reaction.

Now the trick is to make it feasible 18 years from now (in DX universe).

SemiAnonymous
8th Aug 2009, 05:10
Knife to the back of the head works well, too.

Or DTS. Y'know, whatever works.

Anyways, I'm not too fond of a pickpocket mechanic, but I really would like more apartments and whatnot to break into for potential information and resources. That sort of stealing is pretty fun and quite cool...in game, of course.

3nails4you
8th Aug 2009, 05:23
Or DTS. Y'know, whatever works.

Different Type of Stabbing?
Drippy Tree Slices?
Dragon Tooth Sword?

All three work, except what are you going to do before Hong Kong?

SemiAnonymous
8th Aug 2009, 06:09
Different Type of Stabbing?
Drippy Tree Slices?
Dragon Tooth Sword?

All three work, except what are you going to do before Hong Kong?

uhhh

OH LOOK A MYSTERIOUS RIP IN TIME AND SPACE HAS SPAWNED A DRAGONS TOOTH SWORD IN FRONT OF ME I WONDER HOW IT HAPPENED I swear I didn't cheat it in

K^2
8th Aug 2009, 06:35
Knife to the back of the head works well, too.
You mean the spot on the neck right bellow where the skull ends? Yes, that works too. Whatever drops 'em dead. I'm not super worried about ammo, though. So if a single shot from distance is cleaner, that's what I'll go with.

3nails4you
8th Aug 2009, 07:05
You mean the spot on the neck right bellow where the skull ends? Yes, that works too. Whatever drops 'em dead. I'm not super worried about ammo, though. So if a single shot from distance is cleaner, that's what I'll go with.

I don't know if the hitboxes were quite that advanced in DX :P but I think the neck and the head both take the same amount of damage from the back. Maybe if they're wearing a helmet?

K^2
8th Aug 2009, 07:46
Well, yeah, I know the game doesn't simulate it all too well. But in the real world, knife to skull isn't the best way to go about it. If you miss a bit, the blade will glance off, leaving target annoyed. If you miss on the neck, it will still be a lethal wound. Maybe not instantly lethal, but pretty quick, anyhow.

3nails4you
8th Aug 2009, 07:51
Well, yeah, I know the game doesn't simulate it all too well. But in the real world, knife to skull isn't the best way to go about it. If you miss a bit, the blade will glance off, leaving target annoyed. If you miss on the neck, it will still be a lethal wound. Maybe not instantly lethal, but pretty quick, anyhow.

That's why I don't miss ;)

dani
8th Aug 2009, 10:59
Items, objects and areas should have their owners. In Deus Ex you could easily go to the Smuggler’s private area upstairs to steal some stuff behind the mirror. It would be nice if he will warn you not to go there. If you will not listen and go, than he will warn you again or he will use force to protect his private area. You will have to sneak to go upstairs. It would be also almost impossible to take something that does not belong to you. In Deus Ex you can easily go behind the bar and steal some stuff from the bartender. NPC’s will not react. It has to be difficult to get things in Deus Ex 3.
Here is an example of Fallout stealing: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Steal.
Excuse me, my English sucks. I hope that you can understand what I mean.

minus0ne
8th Aug 2009, 20:41
:lol: How did this topic go from stealing to masturbation over knifing people in the back of the neck again?

Anyhoo, I think stealing could be part of the sneaking skill-set (literally, so it's a skill you obtain after the first few sneaking levels), which could combine with some of the stealth augs (hoping for a return of silent walking and running). You'd have to target the belt or sidepockets of a passing or stationary NPC while being totally out of view (I was going to say in the shadows, but that won't matter) and press use to get keys and similar stuff, which may be hanging on the side of the NPC or could be in their pockets. Perhaps the highest level of the sneaking/stealth skill allows you to steal bigger items and even weaponry (with the obvious exception of the equipped weapon of course), there's some sweet cruelty in knocking out an NPC with their own baton :p

Of course this also opens the door for some added ingenious mission design, especially if you can also do the opposite and put stuff in NPCs pockets or on their person (recording device, tracking device, incriminating evidence etc.). This could be done similarly to pickpocketing, except by equipping the item first, then "dropping" it in their pockets (a little icon can signal the brief moment when you're close enough, int he example of a passing guard).


No. Then you'd have to factor in a guard/police force like in Oblivion. Unless you know the unconscious like in Deus Ex 1 then I'm against it.
That's rubbish. Have you ever had the police return an item stolen from you? The fact that Oblivion had it, doesn't mean DX3 needs to. It's not about total realism, it's about solid gameplay. Never let realism come in the way of gameplay.

Blade_hunter
8th Aug 2009, 21:17
I think if we want to allow to pick pocket I think the best is to not allow the fact we can steal weapons (I don't think you can steal a rifle without to be caught even if you are professional, but if the item is small ...
I think we should limit that to data cubes, keys and maybe some things like that.
I think when you try to steal something it should require time and more the skill is evolved less time we need to steal something.
This allow some pacifist walkthrough in a more enhanced way than deus ex itself did without using any violence, now if you want to steal a gun, ammo and and may be upgrades you need to use physical force by knocking or killing ...
At least even if an NPC doesn't have weapons it should use unarmed combat ...

Hertzila
9th Aug 2009, 00:12
I admit that an ability to steal a key, candybar, cube or something similiar sized would be nice. And stealing weaponry is not really an option. I mean, most of the people keep their guns in their holsters and like (or worse yet, are using it) and while people can have really bad sense of perception I don't think soldiers, police or PMC guys would not see it, especially if they are on alert/guarding. Though the last thing we need is the mark randomly knowing that his items have just been stolen. Also I think that you should just let the player steal from right at the beginning, making it that if your behind the mark you should just pickpocket the guy when you press the corresponding key.

Blade_hunter
9th Aug 2009, 01:10
I think this is an option to use only if we are a good sneaker, if the guard is running or under alert this would be impossible.
But you do well to talk about the candy bars, because you can do the following, instead of stealing you put a trapped food/consumables with the trap of your choice in the enemy's pocket

*dreams about seeing my victim smoking exploding cigarettes* :D

minus0ne
9th Aug 2009, 02:27
I wasn't advocating stealing large weapons (which would usually be equipped anyway), more like the secondary/backup stuff NPCs may carry on their person (like a baton for riot police or a small handgun for DX3's equivalent to UNATCO troops etc.), as I said, it's mostly for the fun of using NPCs' weapons against them :p

Anyway, I think we're all agreed stealing smaller items could add a lot to the game.

mark randomly knowing that his items have just been stealed
I'm not usually bothered by bad grammar, but this sort of does :lol: "stealed" should be "stolen". Forgive me, lol.

*dreams about seeing my victim smoking exploding cigarettes* :D
The CIA tried something similar on Castro, needless to say he probably laughed his pants off :p

Irate_Iguana
9th Aug 2009, 10:20
I think this is an option to use only if we are a good sneaker, if the guard is running or under alert this would be impossible.

Tying this stealing thing to sneaking wouldn't be such a bad idea. A char focused on avoiding conflict should have a lot of options to actually do that. Whether it is hacking, stealing or sneaking it would diversify the options you have of getting through the level. Too often the sneaker still has to knock someone out to get a certain key or cube. It would be nice if you could get that without having to disturb anyone and potentially giving you away.



more like the secondary/backup stuff NPCs may carry on their person (like a baton for riot police or a small handgun for DX3's equivalent to UNATCO troops etc.)

I'd really rather not see the stealing of weaponry make it into the game. Even for secondary weaponry it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to be able to lift if off a person.

Blade_hunter
9th Aug 2009, 12:20
I prefer to be able to steal only keys / data and some consumables, this is what I intended with the commandos 2 though
because the challenge is intact when you use stealing abilities, the enemy stay armed as before and we need to retract ourself without to be caught at the risk to be killed.
And the other inconvenient is you can't do that with a weapon in hand (after all this is logic)

Jerion
9th Aug 2009, 12:50
I think the sort of thievery like we all did in Paris in DX1 added a great touch. It'd be a nice addition for stealth-oriented players in DX3, as opposed to a "skill" pickpocketing system. Really, I'd much rather B&E under my own complete control than rely on a dice roll to determine whether an automated action is successful or not.

Irate_Iguana
9th Aug 2009, 13:32
Really, I'd much rather B&E under my own complete control than rely on a dice roll to determine whether an automated action is successful or not.

Preferably no dice rolls. All this leads to is lots of saving/loading to get the desired outcome. Just set hard limits like with hacking. For instance with stealth level I you can't pickpocket anything. Level II grants the ability to fish keycards and keys from belts. Level III allows you to steal wallets and keycards/keys from pockets. Level IV gives the ability to steal things from friendly people while facing them or engaging in conversation.

dani
9th Aug 2009, 15:50
Untrained – You can take a look at NPC’s non active inventory. There is always a big chance that a victim or someone else will notice that. Time you can look at their inventory is limited. You can only access portable data cubes. You can’t copy data from a data cube.
Trained – You can steal small objects from NPC’s non active inventory (money, keys, food, cigarettes, and drugs). You can put small objects in NPC’s inventory (Bug’s, microphones, evidence). You will get a little more time to do that kind of stuff. The chance that the victim will notice a stealing attempt is smaller. You can access portable data cubes. You can not copy data from a data cube.
Advanced – Time you can look at NPC’s inventory increases. Chance of getting caught will decrease. Now you can also take a look at NPC’s active inventory (belt). You can steal bigger things (augmentation upgrades, medkits, biocels, and ammo). You can copy data from a data cube.
Master – You can now steal items from the active inventory, but not the things that are currently in use by NPCs. You are able to steal weapons. You can put an explosive device into the victim’s pocket(killswitch:)).

This is only a concept. Stealing system has to be more advanced. There will be al lot of different NPC’s. A drunken bum or a kid will be an easy target. A paranoid drugs dealer will be more difficult. You will also have a chance to become a victim yourself. For an example a kid that is trying to steel some food or money from you.

Mindmute
9th Aug 2009, 16:14
To be honest, in real pickpocketting you cannot "browse" the content of a person's purse or pocket to decide what to take nor can you just crouch behind someone deciding if you really want to take anything.
The most effective way to pickpocket is simply to brush into someone's pocket or to bump them and use that distraction to quick slip out an item you can grab.

I'd like to see pickpocketing if it worked somewhat like this:

You'd use the pickpocketing skill and fish a random item from the character's inventory and depending on your skill level and their difficulty level (not a dice-roll) they'd have a variable ammount of time before they noticed the item was gone, at which point you'd either have to be way out of sight from him or any other NPC that were in the area (depending on your Skill Level) at the time the stealing took place. You'd also have the choice to drop the item without anyone noticing, before you are caught with it (in order to avoid confrontation) when the NPC are alerted.

Level I : You can steal one small item and have a short ammount of time until the person becomes suspicious with the contact. Others in the area might be alerted and you'd have to do a DC (difficulty check) on them aswell.

Level II : You can steal one small item and have a short ammount of time until the person becomes suspicious with the contact. Only those very very close might be alerted and you'd have to do a DC (difficulty check) on them aswell.

Level III : You can steal one small or medium sized item or plant a small item and have a moderate ammount of time until the person becomes suspicious with the contact. Others in the area are not alerted at all.

Level IV : You can steal or plant a small or medium sized item and have a large ammount of time until the person becomes suspicious with the contact (only very alert targets or successive attempts would draw attention). Others in the area are not alerted at all.


By small items, I mean credits, keys, cellphones, photographs, keycards, anything small of size and light.
Medium ones would be items that are just a bit larger and heavier, while not being too big, such as a small handgun, a LAM, multitools, lockpicks, etc.


I think that this way the skill'd offer some options for those really willing to invest in it and some moderate usefulness to the jack of all trades type of player.
On the other hand those completely neglecting the skill would have a very dangerous (albeit possibly fun) time using it.

Irate_Iguana
9th Aug 2009, 17:28
You will also have a chance to become a victim yourself. For an example a kid that is trying to steel some food or money from you.

Hopefully not. Since you have no real awareness in games it becomes a matter of checking your inventory every few minutes to see if something was stolen. After that you need to either reload or see if you can track down the person responsible. I can see this becoming annoying rather fast.

They actually had this mechanic in Fallout 2. Children in the Den stood by the doorways. If you walked past them they would steal. With high enough Perception and a lucky roll you'd see them do the steal animation. Sometimes they'd steal something and sometimes they didn't. This came down to checking your Inv every time you walked through a door and seeing if something was missing. Really annoying.

dani
9th Aug 2009, 18:00
Hopefully not. Since you have no real awareness in games it becomes a matter of checking your inventory every few minutes to see if something was stolen. After that you need to either reload or see if you can track down the person responsible. I can see this becoming annoying rather fast.

They actually had this mechanic in Fallout 2. Children in the Den stood by the doorways. If you walked past them they would steal. With high enough Perception and a lucky roll you'd see them do the steal animation. Sometimes they'd steal something and sometimes they didn't. This came down to checking your Inv every time you walked through a door and seeing if something was missing. Really annoying.

Pickpocketing by NPC’s has to only occur at some places in the game (maximum 3-4 places). Markets, some streets. There will be places and people you don’t trust. I don’t want that everybody will steal from everybody. Only some criminal NPC’s will attempt to do pickpocketing.

SemiAnonymous
9th Aug 2009, 18:04
if someone were to steal from you, there should be some sort of tip off, of course. The sound of clothes moving, if you will, perhaps the screen bumps slightly if its a low level pick pocket. You turn around and catch them red handed, and reclaim your stuff, punish them, whatever.

dani
9th Aug 2009, 18:30
if someone were to steal from you, there should be some sort of tip off, of course. The sound of clothes moving, if you will, perhaps the screen bumps slightly if its a low level pick pocket. You turn around and catch them red handed, and reclaim your stuff, punish them, whatever.

I like this idea. It would be nice if you had some kind of physical awareness system. Some kind of belts with vibrating elements on it. Attached to your head, arms, legs and so on. The devices have to be wireless for more comfort. You will feel if someone stealing from you. You will also feel if you are getting hit by bullets. Publishers can add de device to the special edition of the game. I hope it will not get too expensive. Why don’t we have that kind of peripheral devices?

Hertzila
9th Aug 2009, 19:44
I like this idea. It would be nice if you had some kind of physical awareness system. Some kind of belts with vibrating elements on it. Attached to your head, arms, legs and so on. The devices have to be wireless for more comfort. You will feel if someone stealing from you. You will also feel if you are getting hit by bullets. Publishers can add de device to the special edition of the game. I hope it will not get too expensive. Why don’t we have that kind of peripheral devices?
I'm sorry for being rude but that would really just be an useless peripheral in the long list of them. However if a... "feature" like that (getting robbed) would be implemented and a visual cue would be tied with it, a vibration function could be tied to a Novint Falcon controller. Making a device just for it though would simply be waste of time and money.

Also my opinion for a pickpocketing mechanic is on the same lines as Irate Iguanas and Mindmutes: Dice rolls/chance should be eliminated.

minus0ne
9th Aug 2009, 22:45
I think the sort of thievery like we all did in Paris in DX1 added a great touch. It'd be a nice addition for stealth-oriented players in DX3, as opposed to a "skill" pickpocketing system. Really, I'd much rather B&E under my own complete control than rely on a dice roll to determine whether an automated action is successful or not.
No one's advocating dice rolls, I was referring to the DX1 skill system which had abilities which grew with each progressing level (swimming, hacking etc.), stealing could be tied to the sneaking skill, allowing you to steal/plant more or bigger items, or allowing more time or something along those lines (a bit like mindmute's post).


I like this idea. It would be nice if you had some kind of physical awareness system.
I don't (like this idea). This is not a sandbox rpg like Oblivion. If, on the one or two occasions someone does steal from you, it should be scripted and/or integrated into a storyline or subques... err I mean primary or secondary objective ;) Though it might be initially confusing if an item just pops out of your inventory, it could be accompanied by a dry remark by Adam when he finds something's been stolen, along with a change in mission objectives ("Steal it back").

I'm not convinced the ability to steal should automatically mean that Adam can get robbed though; I think gameplay should take precedence over "realism" in this case.

Alex Jacobson
11th Aug 2009, 13:07
I think knocking someone out/killing them is far more efficient for making off with their phat lewts.
Implementing a skill based thieving system is a little much.
As for stealing vast amounts of cash from e-banks, the hacking system should be more like actual hacking, rather than just a timer. Basically one would probe and then bypass the firewall and then find the functions for the doors/cameras/electronic cash transfer and exploit them.

minus0ne
12th Aug 2009, 02:35
I think knocking someone out/killing them is far more efficient for making off with their phat lewts.
Implementing a skill based thieving system is a little much.
You're missing the point though; stealing would allow ghosting gameplay. It's not about the loot as it's about datacubes, passwords and other info. No stealing means you have to at least knock out people (to get keys etc.). I'm hoping DX3 will allow both ghosting and non-lethal playthroughs as well as other approaches (combat etc.), it ought to if it's going to live up to the first game. And videogames aren't about being efficient ;)

As for stealing vast amounts of cash from e-banks, the hacking system should be more like actual hacking, rather than just a timer. Basically one would probe and then bypass the firewall and then find the functions for the doors/cameras/electronic cash transfer and exploit them.
Mini-games like that are hard to get right. If you make it much more complicated than for example, lockpicking in Thief Deadly Shadows, it's bound to become tedious before long (there are countless examples of this in modern games). I'm all for solid gameplay, but if I want to feel like I'm hacking I'll play Uplink.

Jerion
12th Aug 2009, 03:19
Mini-games like that are hard to get right. If you make it much more complicated than for example, lockpicking in Thief Deadly Shadows, it's bound to become tedious before long (there are countless examples of this in modern games). I'm all for solid gameplay, but if I want to feel like I'm hacking I'll play Uplink.

Yes, they are. You have to strike a balance between complications and ease of success. You gotta make things interesting and somewhat complicated, but at the same time things also have to be just controllable and solvable enough that the player doesn't mind doing them over and over again.

Irate_Iguana
12th Aug 2009, 07:26
I just flat-out hate minigames. Except for Pazaak. Just give me an interesting animation and success if my char has the correct stats. No annoying minigames to frustrate me. That's what I liked about DX. You'd always succeed in the hack. How much time you'd have left and what you could do depended on your stats. Hitman is also mercifully free of minigames. When you lockpick all you can do is wait for Mr. 47 to finish his business all the while hoping that no guards will come around the corner.

Blade_hunter
12th Aug 2009, 12:41
I think the pickpocketing skill should require time when you do it and more the skill is evolved less time it requires to succeed and more things you are able to steal.
Even if the hacking in DX just have a progress bar, the pickpocketing will require you watch around if nobody (patrolling guards, police and such ...) see you sneaking behind somebody and alert your victim and fail in your task.

FrankCSIS
12th Aug 2009, 23:42
the player doesn't mind doing them over and over again.

And thus eliminating the whole point of those minigames in the first place.

The very nature of those minigames is self-destructive. It takes a little while to catch up on them, and once you do, they become entirely useless, nothing more than a short, predictable delay between yourself and what you wish to have or accomplish. To compensate, they came up with ideas like "you need to have x amount of skills to tackle on that category of minigame", but the problem remains intact. It makes it all the less realistic, actually, because once you do reach level X, you find out that the minigame is exactly the same, but for some reason you can now access it.

They could come up with dynamic minigames, that evolve or vary depending on each situation. For instance, all computers in a building could have the same type of protection, but another company or organisation in another country really shouldn't have the same type of security. I understand the idea to move on from a "press key to do skill" to a more dynamic approach where the player does the character's action, but then they can't keep this old routine going on with each computer to hack/lock to open.

I'd be down with a varied, dynamic approach, because it would keep the hackers working hard for their style of play, while others would steer clear of hacking instead of using it as a cheap shortcut when they're out of resources/don't know what to do next. It would define the various styles, instead of blurring them all into one big accessible ball of fuzz. But that mindset is in direct opposition to the whole democratisation of gaming, where everything should be accessible to everyone, skilled and unskilled alike.

Irate_Iguana
13th Aug 2009, 07:06
I'd be down with a varied, dynamic approach, because it would keep the hackers working hard for their style of play, while others would steer clear of hacking instead of using it as a cheap shortcut when they're out of resources/don't know what to do next.

All it really does is force you to remember more minigames. If you can still save anywhere this just means that in every building the first minigame will give you trouble and the rest won't. It doesn't actually tackle the problem of minigames.

Blade_hunter
13th Aug 2009, 12:19
For me the minigames should be like the portable console in SS2 or some pinball games in a bar, or the games in TNM, something not needed for the progress but that adds depth in the game world ....

Jerion
13th Aug 2009, 15:49
All it really does is force you to remember more minigames. If you can still save anywhere this just means that in every building the first minigame will give you trouble and the rest won't. It doesn't actually tackle the problem of minigames.

You have a point- it doesn't really tackle the problem- unless each iteration of the minigame is different enough from another to keep the player guessing, while short and fun enough so the player doesn't mind taking a moment or two to beat it. Since in DX3 there's always an alternative, the player can find a different way to the objective if the hacking minigame isn't something he/she is good at. The moment you force something like this on the player it stops being fun, so the only way for a minigame anywhere to even have the slightest chance of acceptance is to have alternative ways around it.

In any case, I think one thing we can all agree on is that hacking should be at least a bit more complicated than racing against a timed progress bar.

FrankCSIS
14th Aug 2009, 01:43
All it really does is force you to remember more minigames. If you can still save anywhere this just means that in every building the first minigame will give you trouble and the rest won't. It doesn't actually tackle the problem of minigames.

True, but then the same could be said of action-oriented style of play. Enemies vary from level to level, but once you find out how to defeat one or two guys of a specific type of foes, all you have to do is remember their stats and how they operate, rinse and repeat in different situations. Then a new type of enemy shows up, and you have to learn again. Isn't it exactly the same thing?

Ideally, each guard would react properly according to your gameplay combined with the physical situation as well as their mental state. In an ideal hacking system, the AI would defend itself against your hacking attacks, and you could use different hacking styles and techniques depending on the type of security. But technology for technology, and game mechanic for game mechanic, a dynamic type of hacking minigames is exaclty the same as a dynamic type of enemies and AI. Two different styles of play with the same basic logic behind them, instead of playing the killing part, but just pressing a button for the guy who chooses to hack. At least we have a unified logic, until we witness the decade-awaited return of complexity in games.

Irate_Iguana
14th Aug 2009, 07:27
Then a new type of enemy shows up, and you have to learn again. Isn't it exactly the same thing?

Up to a certain point. With the shooter gameplay you are not just restricted to varying types of enemies. There is also the cooperation between enemies, differing AI within enemy types, amount of enemies, level design and weapon availability. There are more factors and chances to make each encounter unique despite having the same enemy types. Granted, a lot of games don't exploit this to its fullest.

Minigames by their very nature are restricted to much less diversity. If your minigame has too many variables to remember it becomes too complex for the player and a chore. It starts to outlive the reason it was created in the first place as a reasonable challenge to overcome for those who don't want a more passive approach.



In an ideal hacking system, the AI would defend itself against your hacking attacks, and you could use different hacking styles and techniques depending on the type of security.

Worked out properly and not setup to be a minigame I can see this working as a totally alternative part. A specific segment of the game only aimed at the person specializing in hacking and information gathering. However given the nature of the industry at this point I don't see a game company spending the resources to make this path through the game memorable when they can churn out a substandard shooter and make a profit.