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sarafan_lord
28th Jul 2009, 23:46
Just wandering what the real reason is for the pre-determined nature of the world of Nosgoth. The fact just seems to be stated as a given; it seems that we never really learn what causes the inhabitants of Nosgoth to be pre-determined to a certain future, considering what we know about conception of life, death, of the body and the the soul. I guess I do not really understand the Wheel of Fate considering the cycle, why pre-destination is a necessity. Can a being such as a vampire really exist in the world of Nosgoth, as it can indefinately postpone death and thus escape pre-destination?

The second part is that Moebius seems to be making some logical mistakes which contradict a pre-determined Nosgoth. Firstly, how can Moebius blame Kain for the loss of balance and destruction of the Pillar if Kain is pre-determined; I am sure that there are plenty of other examples that fit this category.Secondly, Moebius criticizes Raziel in SR2 for not killing Kain, suggesting that Raziel had a choice. Yet, at times in SR2 and Defiance, Moebius tries to convince Raziel that he is pre-destined as well. The easier answer to this is that everyone is acting out their pre-destined part, except for Raziel, even as history reshuffles itself based on Raziel's actions. But, how can history play both sides at the same time, in order to take the path of least resistance, one as Kain and one as Moebius, in opposition to itself? (did my best, hopefully it makes sense)

The last curve ball is this: if you are pre-destined, in the sense of LOK, can you really be aware/conscious of it? It seems to me that awareness is the opposite of pre-destination.

Raziel'sRevenge
29th Jul 2009, 18:42
You bring up some good points. So far as the pre-determined nature of Nosgoth goes, it kind of has to be taken for granted for the series to work, but it isn't really seen until Soul Reaver 2 where you start to do the serious time traveling. Think about it this way: How do you know if you're life is pre-determined or not? You don't. The only way to know would be to altar events which you know happened, events which are critical for your life as you know it (i.e. invent a time machine, go back in time, and then kill yourself before you invent it. If you can off yourself, life isn't pre-determined, if no matter how many times/ways you try something stops you, bingo.)

Secondly, the reason that vampires are such a blasphomy to the world as a whole (supposedly) is because they're immortal, and that's breaking the rules, just like you said. Suddenly you've got a race standing up and questioning this whole "we must just accept death because it will lead to life" stuff. What if death is just death? What if you simply feed some giant self-proclaimed, yet false god? Wouldn't things work much better for that god if the world is pre-determined and nobody is allowed to question anything because he says so? That's why Raziel is such a danger. He has the power to question, and he has the power to change.

Third: Moebius does make some illogical decisions and making some rather big mistakes, but you have to remember, he isn't thinking like you or I. He's thinking like a man on a mission from god, and if god tells him to do something he does not question. Moebius is willing to mutate and deform the entire world in Blood Omen 1, and tries to have vampires wiped off the face of the world completely despite the fact that the pillars revolve around them, and he probably knows that (we don't know for sure). Moebius doesn't care about the pillars. He's been corrupted just like everyone else, if he really cared he'd have been helping Kain kill off the other pillar gaurdians and most certainly wouldn't have put up a fight when his time came. Moebius's criticizing of Raziel is justified though. Raziel did kill Kain. He did, it was just that when the time came, he decided to fight the pull of history (the events had already happened remember) and let Kain live. Moebius's world changed quite a bit there. Suddenly Kain is alive and well, and it's due to the very guy that was destined to kill him.

So far as history playing both sides: History isn't a character. It doesn't have a will, and it doesn't care about the pitiful decisions of the living. All it cares about is flowing forward. If Kain's path is easiest, then it will go Kain's way, if Moebius's path is easiest, it will go Moebius's way. That's a foundation of the series, both sides trying to play history for their own gain. History doesn't have favorites or sides.

Finally, I think I answered the last curve ball in the beginning lol

Let me know if I need to clarify anything or if I've mixed up any of the information. I haven't been able to play in quite some time, my PS2 has been on the fritz for a looooong time :(

sarafan_lord
31st Jul 2009, 01:23
Thanks for answering. But, as usual, answers lead to more question.


Think about it this way: How do you know if you're life is pre-determined or not?You don't. The only way to know would be to altar events which you know happened, events which are critical for your life as you know it (i.e. invent a time machine, go back in time, and then kill yourself before you invent it. If you can off yourself, life isn't pre-determined, if no matter how many times/ways you try something stops you, bingo.)


Makes sense for our world, but Kain and Raziel had the Chronoplast to learn from. Kain definately saw how events will progress to a certain point; Raziel was shocked from what he saw, but I am not sure if he understood it at first in SR1; there was more awareness later in the series however. Also, the whole concept of time travel in the LOK series seems to contrary to predestination. Normally, one expects time/history to flow gradually forward, not jump to future and past. But, history allowed a pre-determined Moebius to send Kain back in time and create create a paradox. "History abhors a paradox", remember!? But in this case it seems that history allowed for a creation of a paradox.



So far as history playing both sides: History isn't a character. It doesn't have a will, and it doesn't care about the pitiful decisions of the living. All it cares about is flowing forward. If Kain's path is easiest, then it will go Kain's way, if Moebius's path is easiest, it will go Moebius's way. That's a foundation of the series, both sides trying to play history for their own gain. History doesn't have favorites or sides.


This is possibly a good answer for the ambiguity of the murals in the Vampire Cathedral in Defiance, where we do not know who wins the fight, Raziel or Kain. History may still be running its couse through the path of least resistance, so the outcome is unknown.

Linikratyo
31st Jul 2009, 09:25
The second part is that Moebius seems to be making some logical mistakes which contradict a pre-determined Nosgoth. Firstly, how can Moebius blame Kain for the loss of balance and destruction of the Pillar if Kain is pre-determined; I am sure that there are plenty of other examples that fit this category.Secondly, Moebius criticizes Raziel in SR2 for not killing Kain, suggesting that Raziel had a choice. Yet, at times in SR2 and Defiance, Moebius tries to convince Raziel that he is pre-destined as well. The easier answer to this is that everyone is acting out their pre-destined part, except for Raziel, even as history reshuffles itself based on Raziel's actions. But, how can history play both sides at the same time, in order to take the path of least resistance, one as Kain and one as Moebius, in opposition to itself? (did my best, hopefully it makes sense)

Moebius was trying to manipulate Raziel so it was simply a LIE

The_Hylden
31st Jul 2009, 17:21
You're misunderstanding what destiny is. A vampire being a vampire is the cause of the deaths for the humans it feeds on, already predetermined in the timeline. It doesn't just happen suddenly because the vampire just became a vampire.

Time is a loop, meaning that all events on that loop, past, present (which is all subjective depending on who you are at what point you exist) and future are already mapped out.

Example: it's already predetermined that Raziel steps into the Chronoplast, goes back in time, kills his former self and his brethren, then enters the sword, before Raziel's human self is ever born. That one loop on the timeline is already determined, as well as all events along the timeline of every other being, and fall of ever leaf from every tree, every gust of wind and flooding river, every thunderstorm, fire, mudslide... It's all predetermined. When a character that's mischievous is born, or becomes mischievous throughout their life, it's already been plotted their devious nature before they were born and after they've died -- all of their decisions and actions, before they ever exist and after they do, along with the interconnecting elements for all others and affects on them, the world around. The being, say it's Moebius, cannot simply choose to suddenly manipulate someone. It does so because that's what it always does and the destiny of others being affected are so because they were always meant to be. That always was their destiny.

Further on Raziel's loop: his journey into the sword always happens and lasts until that moment when he is released after Kain strikes the sword thousands of years later over Raziel's head. That moment, Raziel attains his own self as a weapon on his arm, thus providing the catalyst for his own imprisonment back in the past into the very sword he sprung from. This all happens at a point before Raziel goes back in time to kill his former human self, who later becomes his wraith self, that later becomes the Wraith Blade. All of this, time plotted out and all affects on the others around Raziel and future others from his time in the various periods, all are calculated along the single time loop -- the timestream. Raziel is a good example to use to much, since he's the ultimate example of time as a loop, given his own existence loops in on itself several times.

So, Moebius doesn't make mistakes, nor rash decisions that seem to be free will. He has always made these decisions because it's in his nature and already plotted on the timeline. After the paradoxes change things, due to Raziel's anomaly of possessing free will, time alters slightly and the outcomes then are calculated to start into the event of the paradox in the past, all changes to the present, and all changes that must happen to the future with all beings that still lead us back when the loop reloops to the moment of the change -- now instantly the destined moment on the timeline, and no longer a point of change...

I know I am sounding heady, but that's about the size of it. Another easy way to describe it: when I write a movie, I know all that's going to happen from start to end in that film. There will be twists, turns, random characters will change, or change others, some will die, others will not ever be the same, some might be born, but I know it all before I ever direct the film I wrote... It's all already determined. I can do anything within that film, besides cause it to be destroyed. The only limitation is that all events must never destroy the world I create. Time isn't sentient, but, like any randomized patterned path a computer might create, the beginning and end can lead back to itself, but all points inbetween can be completely random and take various twists and turns, affect and be affected by each other, as long as that string of points never breaks the loop.

sarafan_lord
5th Aug 2009, 18:38
Thanks for the clarification, now I do remember Moebius saying that "time is but a loop..." at the end of SR1. Sounds a bit like the Matrix, but without the real world. But, we are not out of the woods yet.

Hopefully I am correct in saying that time is the same thing as history in terms of LOK narrative. Now going back to my previous statement, if "history abhors a paradox", why is a paradox created by history?

I have a difficult time imageing how predetermined characters in LOK can be conscious/aware. I see all the characters as part of history and really nothing in themselves, not separate entities; they are 'material' representations of history (except for Raziel), thus they cannot be conscious. Then, the reduced view of the story is a two character play, history/determinism (everyone except Raziel) vs. randomness (Raziel); I think Raziel's role fits better with the concept of randomness than free will because Raziel is only partially aware of the overall destiny of Nosgoth and is not making conscious/willful actions all the time. Of course this contradicts the statement in the above paragraph; how can history introduce a paradox?

The_Hylden
6th Aug 2009, 22:52
A paradox isn't created by history. A paradox is the bump in the very limited road that time/history can't get around, introduced by the unforeseeable actions of the being known as Raziel. When two Reavers clash, it is Wraith Blade Raziel inside the blade, against its own self, trying to potentially destroy itself, that time cannot account for -- back to the computer, like the computer unable to calculate actual mathematical figures that add up in this moment, threatening to crash the entire system. A paradox can be worked around only if time can reshuffle events enough so that the variables add up. If not, then either time/history is utterly destroyed, or the force that is interjecting itself into the timestream to cause the potentual breakdown is destroyed. It's the immovable object against the unstoppable force thing. One has to eventually override the other in some way; though, by default, both forces are equally unchangeable. So, to summarize: it is not history/time that introduces the paradox. The paradox is the unaccountable outcome of Raziel's own actions. This can be a paradox that is ultimately the end-all of things, or of Raziel, or time can find a way around it, like a narrow stream coming up against a rock that was suddenly dropped into it. Either the stream moves the rock, the rock obliterates the progress of the stream, or the stream finds a way around the rock.

sarafan_lord
19th Aug 2009, 22:08
I guess that explanation will have to do. I'm not completely satisfied with it though.

Millentree10
22nd Aug 2009, 04:45
I believe life is not about fate or destiny, but about choices. It's all about what you choose to do, and only you can know what the right choice is (Do I sound like a matrix fan yet? Basically I'm reciting the Oracle)