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Thread: Legacy of Kain - Skyrim/Dragon Age RPG

Legacy of Kain - Skyrim/Dragon Age RPG

  1. #76
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    Why would it need to influence them?

    You play one of the many recently deceased victims of the vampires to be resurrected by the Elder God, as it did for Mobius in Defiance; and you aren't the only one, countless others have also been resurrected. The Elder God has proven to not be omniscient, so it might not anticipate Kain's return to this era. If it doesn't forsee Kain then why would it need to go through the trouble of establishing influence over all of the humans it raises. There already is ample motivation for you and the others, vengeance against the vamps and the promise of a second chance at life once it is over; and as stated before, all you have to do is die once in order for the Elder God to own you once again.
    *

  2. #77
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    Glad you like it Ygdrasel

    Part of me thinks the evolution is the body adapting to support the dark gift as it develops, bringing their form closer to that of the original source of the gift (the ancient vampires); but because the body is human it isn't a complete transition, creating the vamps we know (which you might consider to be hybrids).

    Theoretically then, a Hylden could be turned vampire; and that could be an interesting back story for Seer from BO2. A female Hylden turned vampire, as time passed her formed evolved to the form we saw as the dark gift developed. That could be what saves her from being banished to the demon dimension during the rise of the Pillars.
    As it so happens, that has been exactly my theory on the Seer for a time now. A Hylden who escaped the binding by virtue of Ancient blood given by Vorador (or else Vorador persuaded it be given by Janos - this being the favor she owes him for).

    This would explain the vampiric traits she possesses and her telekinetic gift (which is shown by various vampires but no Hylden).

    And while the Elder God is not omniscient, he's also not foolish. He knows Kain means to destroy him. He knows Kain comprehends the intricacies of time travel. So he would certainly anticipate Kain's return to the era.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 27th May 2016 at 05:59.
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  3. #78
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    Yes, the EG would see it as a certainty; but it has no way of knowing what point in this post SR era that Kain will emerge in. I doubt it could also predict that Kain would turn the very people that were resurrected to finish off the remnants of the old empire, becoming the foundation for the new one.

  4. #79
    Ok, i know that Kain is outside Wheel of Fate because of his unique, from vapire point of wiev, "present from Raziel"- no heart, and he still is alive and kicking- but who siad that our hero is?
    And by predicting possible future choices of our hero/heroine, Elder God could have insight in to possible movements of Kain
    Or simply some powerfull magic- that helps restrain our poor protagonist in crucial moments- as a safe fail device "put" inside in moment of resurrection. Or even not restrain, but subtly influence him/her- agitating, making him/her suspicious of possibly new allies.
    Connection doesn`t have to be severed 100% moment we turn vampire. And that could be one of our goals- to sever that last bit of connection to Elder God

  5. #80
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    Sounds good, adds more motivation and it supports a theory of mine.

    I've theories that the silence of the EG that drove the ancients to suicide after being cursed was actually the result of the Pillar's creation, that the binding also compromised the EG. When the Pillars are pristine and under vampiric control the binding is complete; and when that happens, the EG is no longer has influence.

    After the Pillars went to the first humans the binding decayed just enough to that the EG was able to whisper into their ears and turn them against the vampires.

    So if the theory is correct, the promise that by helping Kain would not only restore the Pillars but also save you from being controlled by the EG.

  6. #81
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    Kain would turn the very people that were resurrected to finish off the remnants of the old empire, becoming the foundation for the new one.
    ...Wait, who are we referring to here?


    The "Pillars bound the EG" theory is interesting but I'm not entirely sure it holds. There isn't any logical reason as to why the Pillars would bind him so. He was not banished anyplace. The binding targeted Hylden.

    One might argue that the Dimension pillar - being the strength behind the dimensional boundaries - specifically locked him up snug in the spectral realm but it's not as if dimensional borders only existed after the Pillars. So he ought to have been locked up all along anyway then if this were the case. The only reason the demon dimension needed an extra lock (the Pillars) is because the Hylden, being native to the standard realm, were unnaturally imprisoned in a foreign one and (on top of the world in general disdaining this for balance reasons) would make a struggle to escape that would necessitate counteraction.


    So yeah, I'm not certain that holds -- but the end result works out still: As Raziel notes in SR2, the Elder God does seem to thrive more as Nosgoth grows further corrupted. Rather than being locked by the Pillars, it could be that his food supply is locked by them.



    Consider Nosgoth, pre-Pillars. Probably not quite as grand as post-Pillars because the Pillars rendered the land magically strong as opposed to just naturally - whatever the world's state, forging these perfect-state magical things and tying them to the world boosted it even further.

    But back to pre-Pillars: Nosgoth is basically healthy and life/death rates are roughly well-balanced. So the Elder God can live in that world more-or-less comfortably. And he does so way back in Ancient times, using his cult to keep a nice moderate flow of snackage. But then the Hylden go off seeking to break from death, find immortality of a kind. And that threatens his food source so he decides to pre-empt that threat by sparking a war that will allow him to feed himself for quite a time to come.

    Then, the unexpected: His troops in this conflict pull a power move. They forge these mystically-perfect artifacts and bind them deep into the very fabric of the world. The magical flawlessness of these constructs elevates the health of the world to a new idyllic state.

    In a Pillar-maintained world, the land is obscenely healthy. Everything is balanced upon a perfect point. People live and thrive to far greater degrees, life expectancy swiftly rises. People die less - EG eats less. By extension of lower/slower death rates, rebirth occurs less, further crippling the death rate (that which is not yet reborn cannot die again), further depleting his food supply.

    So the Elder God begins to go hungry...But then he gets a new idea. The Pillars were forged to be an inextricable connection to Nosgoth. He can use that same connection that elevated Nosgoth and left him malnourished to tear Nosgoth down and glut himself.

    In a Pillar-ruined world, the land is wretched. Conditions are unsuited for thriving organisms. Life expectancy is dismal. People die fast and easy and are reborn to die fast and easy again - and again and again and again and again. Food comes in somewhat smaller portions now (as the overall population is lesser for the world's conditions) but it comes so rapidly and easy as to compensate for that.

    So restoring the Pillars may not truly trap the Elder God, i.e., literally magically block him outright from the world. But it may starve him to a point where he shrivels back into the spectral realm and can't muster the energy to spread so far. The end result is the same - and we'd get to see his voice/influence lessen and his physical form shrink away from the world a little more as each Pillar is restored. (Though total starvation takes time: The final blow to end him would require a future-trip after the restoration, at which point he'd just be a shriveled husk of the monstrosity he was prior.)

    It would be a shame to see these talks ended when the forum goes off. I don't suppose you keep a presence over in the main LoK section?

    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    Kain is outside Wheel of Fate
    He isn't though...
    People keep with this idea that Kain was broken from the Wheel when his heart was removed because Moebius couldn't see it.

    Moebius does not see Kain survive that because Moebius is not the Time Guardian at that point.
    His resurrection at the Ancient Citadel occurs, chronologically, after his original death by Kain's hand in Blood Omen. Moebius ceased to be the Time Guardian when BO-era Kain restored the Pillar of Time - and then Moebius was revived at the Citadel. In that moment, he has no omniscience to see Kain's survival because the last thing he witnessed as Time Guardian was Kain's death.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 1st Jun 2016 at 08:50.
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  7. #82
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    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    ...Wait, who are we referring to here?
    This is your character, along with other humans that the EG resurrected in order to wipe out the remnants of Kain's first empire; and betray once once the task is complete, denying you your reward of life. Making you a prime candidate to side with Kain, wiping the slate clean for both vampires and humans.

    "Who better to serve me then those whose passions transcend all notions of good and evil."

    The theory is that the Pillars place the EG in a type of comma when the binding is complete, which only happens when the Pillars are pristine and the vampires are their guardians. This is just going off the fact that the silence of the EG was first broken (as far as we know) when it spoke to Mobius, before he became a vampire and possibly even before he became a guardian.

    If the theory does hold, then after some of the ancient vampire guardians committed suicide the Pillars went into the weakened state like it did in BO and the EG became conscious once more; and there it watched quietly as to understand what was happening. It watched and learned as the ancient vampires brought the humans that were meant to serve the Pillars to their citadel to informed them of how things are and that they were to be turned into vampires, that is when the EG first spoke to Mobius. In Defiance, Mobius was resurrected where he and the EG first encountered one another, that was from within the Vampire Citadel.
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 1st Jun 2016 at 20:43.

  8. #83
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood

    The theory is that the Pillars place the EG in a type of comma when the binding is complete, which only happens when the Pillars are pristine and the vampires are their guardians. This is just going off the fact that the silence of the EG was first broken (as far as we know) when it spoke to Mobius, before he became a vampire and possibly even before he became a guardian.
    I'm with Ygdrasel here. This theory isn't solid.
    The pillars never "binded" EG...he was active before and after the pillars.

    Before the pillars, EG manipulated the Ancient Vampires, and he only went silent towards the vampires (due to their immortality and not being able to feed off them anymore).
    After the pillars, EG manipulated the humans...most notably Moebius.

    Also, in SR2, EG was clearly fine underneath the pillars...

    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    Ok, i know that Kain is outside Wheel of Fate because of his unique, from vapire point of wiev
    Umm...no dude. Kain isn't outside of the wheel...he said so himself in LoK-Defiance.
    The only person outside of the wheel, and actually capable of free will, is Raziel (also explained in LoK-Defiance).

    Raziel didn't "give" Kain free will...he cleansed Kain from his corruption, that was caused by Nupraptor in Blood Omen 1.
    This allows Kain to fulfill his role as the Balance guardian since now he is no longer corrupt...it has nothing to do with free will.

    Explaining this a bit further, the "free will" concept is directly linked to the wheel of fate...which in other words means, only those exempt from the wheel have free will.
    The only being in this situation is Raziel. He cannot be absorbed by EG...Raziel cannot "die".
    I'm not sure if this was ever concretely explained...i believe this is be due to Raziel being a living paradox. He wields his own soul as a weapon, since he is the soul reaver.
    I think Raziel only got his free will after his fight with Kain in SR1, where he got imbued with the soul reaver.

    PS: About the original topic of this thread...i think the best type of RPG that would fit LoK is Witcher.
    Legacy of Kain playing out as the Witcher would be AWESOME.
    Which btw, does Witcher 3 have mod support? Cause if it does, someone needs to make a LoK mod ASAP
    Last edited by ParadoxicalOmen; 1st Jun 2016 at 21:09.

  9. #84
    Originally Posted by ParadoxicalOmen
    I think Raziel only got his free will after his fight with Kain in SR1, where he got imbued with the soul reaver.
    Precisely. Kain's actions there turned Raziel into a constant Reaver-convergence - a constant ripple point in time. People seem to think Raziel's free will came about as a result of his escaping perma-death in the Abyss. They then extend this reasoning to Kain's escape from death via heart-removal. But the initial reasoning is faulty. Raziel's free will springs to life when Kain creates that perpetual convergence. And Kain's survival is unforeseen because Moebius wasn't Time Guardian then - which also explains why the Elder God went ahead and ate him at last. Moebius without his magic is just an old man.

    And if it's got a PC version, it's got mod support. Skyrim has the Soul Reaver in it.


    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    This is your character, along with other humans that the EG resurrected in order to wipe out the remnants of Kain's first empire; and betray once once the task is complete, denying you your reward of life. Making you a prime candidate to side with Kain, wiping the slate clean for both vampires and humans.

    "Who better to serve me then those whose passions transcend all notions of good and evil."

    The theory is that the Pillars place the EG in a type of comma when the binding is complete, which only happens when the Pillars are pristine and the vampires are their guardians. This is just going off the fact that the silence of the EG was first broken (as far as we know) when it spoke to Mobius, before he became a vampire and possibly even before he became a guardian.

    If the theory does hold, then after some of the ancient vampire guardians committed suicide the Pillars went into the weakened state like it did in BO and the EG became conscious once more; and there it watched quietly as to understand what was happening. It watched and learned as the ancient vampires brought the humans that were meant to serve the Pillars to their citadel to informed them of how things are and that they were to be turned into vampires, that is when the EG first spoke to Mobius. In Defiance, Mobius was resurrected where he and the EG first encountered one another, that was from within the Vampire Citadel.

    The EG cannot deny life. He does not control that cycle. And...Moebius never became a vampire. O.o

    The EG first spoke to Moebius in the Vampire Cathedral. Moebius was at the cathedral after the Ancients kidnapped him. He had already been selected as the Guardian though whether or not he had already been granted the accompanying powers is not explicitly known.

    There is nothing solid to support a coma-inducing Pillar theory though. He goes silent in disdain for their immortality and breaks his silence to Moebius because Moebius is the ideal instrument.

    1) He's a fresh kidnap victim likely with some frustration toward his captors. This makes him...Malleable.

    2) Once granted the powers of Time Guardian, he provides an unprecedented and unequaled utility.

    3) Moebius has a long-standing reputation for deceit and trickery. He may have held these traits even prior to Guardianship, with the new powers only fueling those qualities.

    A very ideal agent for a deceptive god, in short. And if the Pillars in a perfected state did have the unforeseen effect of drying up his food supply, Moebius' station would be especially alluring as a method by which to avoid future unaccounted consequences. (This would also explain his obsession with reining in Raziel's free will - anything unforeseen is considered a risk to him after that first crucial blunder.)
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 2nd Jun 2016 at 01:03.
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  10. #85
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    I'm not saying he did; but that was what the ancient vampires had in mind, turning the human guardians into vampires.

    Heretic kept at the idea that the EG would have done something to your character to influence them while in the land of the living, I just wanted to find so way to incorporate it; but I much prefer that the EG would command his new followers to kill you once you have served your purpose, so there is no question that they are the enemy even before you become a vampire.

    If the theory doesn't work then it doesn't work. I just wanted the EG to have a more substantial motivation to have orchestrated all this than just because it doesn't like to tightening it's belt.

  11. #86
    Thruth to be told- we all don`t really know why Elder God went silent after Pillars were erected. We can, probably rightly- after all it`s logical- assume that he was simply angry that vampires went immortal. Or maybe he wants everyone to think that way? He rally likes to pretend to be all-knowing, and allmighty
    As you siad earlier- Pillars made realm flourish. I imagine bouncing back and forth in time, to keep everyone, where they suppose to be, doing what they suppose to do is pretty energy consuming- so being "hungry" he also was weaker, and his influence was therefore diminished. So his "silence" was maybe conserving strenght to talk to important people- good tools- like Moebius? Or maybe he knew something else...

    And that leads to my theory, that i posted long time ago, and it made people in here almost chew me alive. I`ll post it again- Ygdrasel will impale me, but i`m still holding onto it:
    Elder God is at least partially responisble of truning Ancients in to vampires. "It dosen`t make any sense. Why would he make them stagnate in to thier flesh, when all he wants to do is eat thier souls?". True, he probably didn`t want most of it- immortality, but maybe he chose lesser evil? He disposed of guys powefull enough to partialy shut his business down, by inventing Pillars

    First of all- He knew that most of them will kill themselves, y`know he went silent, they couldn`t take it bla bla bla, and after... meal, they return to Material Realm, as "lower lifefroms"- namely humans. So most of them is dealt with in single move. Dealing with the rest of them- he knew humans won`t like to be drained of blood. BOOM. Sarafans, Moebius Army, and Hylden Lord and his Neo-Sarafan- he knew there will be plenty of people capable and willing to go and do whats need to be done. And if they aren`t capable- vampires will kill them, and thier souls will float to him anyway. Win-win situation. That way binding will become weaker, and his influence over the Nosgoth won`t be hindered as much. Look how he and Moebius were confident that Hylden will be dealt with in time. And by whom? By Kain- thier biggest enemy. Both of them knew how to stage it and let thier enemies eat each other. Dealing with one problem at the time- Hylden start to take a ? Send Ancients to war. Ancient start to become to powerfull? Send blood-curse(true- not his real goal, but he had to make most of it), humans and pout- to make ancients feel guilty. Humans are turned in to vampires? Send more humans. What... Who... Kain? Ok, let`s manipulate Raziel.
    He was sure he`ll win

    Aaand even if you say that all above is bull i have one big problem with your theory about Hylden trying to be immortal and that starting whole war. If all they wanted to do is escape Elder God- why didn`t they turned vampires themselves? You know- "throw" the curse on themselves? What, they invented that curse only after banishment? How? In Demon Realm there is some kind of curse-advisor? Who?

  12. #87
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel

    And if it's got a PC version, it's got mod support. Skyrim has the Soul Reaver in it.
    I know...but the Skyrim mods were just skins. I had in mind something more meaningful...
    Like recreating part of Nosgoth (like the Pillars); maybe having Vorador and other important characters as NPC's; Trying to make some spells similar to the ones in LoK (like mind control, or Blood shot).
    In other words, trying to create a mini LoK game (like maybe just the Silent Cathedral Section)...

  13. #88
    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    Thruth to be told- we all don`t really know why Elder God went silent after Pillars were erected.

    I imagine bouncing back and forth in time

    Elder God is at least partially responisble of truning Ancients in to vampires. He disposed of guys powefull enough to partialy shut his business down, by inventing Pillars

    If all they wanted to do is escape Elder God- why didn`t they turned vampires themselves? You know- "throw" the curse on themselves? What, they invented that curse only after banishment? How? In Demon Realm there is some kind of curse-advisor? Who?
    We do though. We are told why.

    The Elder God does not bounce back and forth in time.

    Disposing of those seeking to deprive his food supply by orchestrating an even greater deprivation still makes no sense. The Ancients were never too powerful - they always worshiped him. And the Elder God was not confident about the Hylden being dealt with - Moebius was because Moebius already saw that future. And all of that isn't even considering the one crucial fact that the Hylden orchestrated the blood curse and the Elder God has exactly zero influence with them.


    And the curse thrown on the vampires was cast in the very moments before the banishment. I doubt the Hylden had time to re-calibrate their magic to affect themselves even if they'd wanted. They also probably didn't want to become bloodthirsty monsters which was a part of the curse so...Yeah.


    @Gen: The EG just sending agents to kill you once your work is done certainly seems his style. And as to his motivation, it's a fairly recurring motive of actual people to do wretched things for something as petty as greed for resources. It seems fitting to his character to have such a selfish, little drive. And (per my conception of it anyway), the Pillars aren't just making him "tighten his belt". They cause him to literally starve. A starving being grows weak. A weak being cannot influence people or events. And, eventually, a starving creature dies (though, being spectral in origin, the EG perhaps cannot 'die' as such - but he can become so weak as to more or less become comatose.)


    @Paradox: The Soul Reaver is Skyrim is a custom model, not only a skin. So it's certainly possible to make a model of Vorador and such. As far as getting such a thing built and into a game proper, I lack the technical knowledge as to how. But it should be doable.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 3rd Jun 2016 at 04:21.
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  14. #89
    Wait, wait, wait... Didn`t Hylden cursed vampires 'from' Demon Dimension??? Even Hylden Lord did point it out to Janos in Blood Omen 2 that "it was justice for sending them away", yes? And thier pre-banishment weapon was Mass, not blood curse, that would make vampires even harder to kill, am i correct?

    And if Hylden knew about Elder God i think, they`d choose blood curse over being eaten over and over and over again- that would give them time to seek another way of ganing thier immortality. We all saw that they don`t have any problems with using humans, or other creatures for that matter, to whatever purpose they see fit. They feed slaves to Mass, they`d kill everything sapient in Nosgoth beside them if Device was ever completed in time. They experiment, torture seeking answers to thier questions. To them humans are cattle, much like to vampires, so bloodthirst for immortality would be fair deal to them. As long as Elder is kept away from them.

    Elder would know what happens to Hylden- he doesn`t need Time Streamer powers- he just will be there and see for himself

    Ancient were very powerfull- they erected Pillars after all, magical construct capable of banishing entire race and keeping whole land balanced. If they can do this, who knows what they would be capable of if they ever discovered Elder true nature?

  15. #90
    Honestly Heretic_13, there are many arguments to shoot down your theory.

    EG planning on the Ancients getting immortality really doesn't make much sense.
    There were basically 2 dominant species, which were the Ancients and the Hylden...the Ancients were devout to EG, doing his bidding and worshiping him (and most importantly, dying to feed him), but the Hylden didn't much care for him...
    The Ancients becoming immortal was punishment from the Hylden, since they were banishing them to the demon realm for not believing in their "God".

    To my knowledge the Hylden are already immortal. I always thought of the the Seer and the Hylden lord as such.
    In special the Hylden lord remembers being banished and argues with Janos (BO2) saying how the Hylden have changed in the demon realm:
    https://youtu.be/E8J6zp8xHsc?t=8m12s
    (Not to mention he was alive the whole time Kain was sleeping after losing to him...which was 200 years)
    But i guess the most interesting quote is:
    "You have won the battle, but the war between your kind and mine will never end. Our banishment in the demon dimension also ensures our immortality. One day, we shall return."

    I really doubt EG planned to make the Ancients immortal...especially considering he is so focused on killing Kain, which is a consequence of this.

    Btw, EG going silent towards the Ancients is curious, but isn't that important on my opinion...there are several valid reason for this.
    He could just be mad since his food source is gone; he could be doing it on purpose so they go mad and suicide; he could have simply lost interest.
    In the end he focused on a new species to manipulated and feed...the humans.

  16. #91
    I didn`t say he wanted them immortal. I said he wanted them gone. Dead. So thier souls would fly to him and return as humans, since we probably have shorter lifespan than Ancients and Hylden anyway, and our talents- that could make us dominant- lie elsewhere than powerfull magic capable of keeping him at bay. We are fun little race, aren`t we? And as you said, he could go silent because he knew, Ancients will kill themselves. "Could". Not "did"
    I pointed out earlier- we don`t know every reason for his silence. He likes to make people think he did that, because they were, well... heretics in his(many) eyes. But was it really only that?

    Hylden are immortal, but as we all know Demon Realm isn`t place they are fond of. I`m guessing they would choose vampirism over that. I know they are now all high-and-mighty about vampires being "degenerate parasites", but it is just general hate. In thier shoes i would give priority to being not-devoured-by-Elder-God

  17. #92
    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    I didn`t say he wanted them immortal. I said he wanted them gone. Dead. So thier souls would fly to him and return as humans, since we probably have shorter lifespan than Ancients and Hylden anyway, and our talents- that could make us dominant- lie elsewhere than powerfull magic capable of keeping him at bay. We are fun little race, aren`t we? And as you said, he could go silent because he knew, Ancients will kill themselves. "Could". Not "did"
    I pointed out earlier- we don`t know every reason for his silence. He likes to make people think he did that, because they were, well... heretics in his(many) eyes. But was it really only that?
    The Ancients were mortal and perfectly willing to do whatever the EG wanted...so again, it doesn't make much sense.

    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    Hylden are immortal, but as we all know Demon Realm isn`t place they are fond of. I`m guessing they would choose vampirism over that. I know they are now all high-and-mighty about vampires being "degenerate parasites", but it is just general hate. In thier shoes i would give priority to being not-devoured-by-Elder-God
    This is just speculation of yours, which personally i don't agree.
    It seems the Hylden discovered a way to achieve immortality, which is the reason for the war between them and the Ancients.
    It's not like they "used" their only way of being immortal on the Ancients...this wouldn't make sense, since why wouldn't they be able to turn themselves immortal also? To back this up, the Hylden lord says that they are immortal...so obviously they knew how to become immortal and didn't use "their only chance" on the Ancients...

    Vampirism is just a bonus punishment, the true punishment is immortality...they gave the Ancients immortality, as a way to punish them for beginning a war against exactly this...the vampirism is just a bonus, since the Ancients were so very righteous. (This is how i see it)

  18. #93
    Originally Posted by ParadoxicalOmen
    It seems the Hylden discovered a way to achieve immortality, which is the reason for the war between them and the Ancients.
    It's not like they "used" their only way of being immortal on the Ancients...this wouldn't make sense, since why wouldn't they be able to turn themselves immortal also? To back this up, the Hylden lord says that they are immortal...so obviously they knew how to become immortal and didn't use "their only chance" on the Ancients...
    Vampirism is just a bonus punishment, the true punishment is immortality...they gave the Ancients immortality, as a way to punish them for beginning a war against exactly this...the vampirism is just a bonus, since the Ancients were so very righteous. (This is how i see it)
    (I`m very sorry- i`m about to be very sarcastic. I`m not attacking anybody. Just whole day had to put up with people who lack even ounce of common sense, and it`s very hard to rid myself of this attitude)

    And that is your speculation
    Two or more ways of achiving immortality? What, they were sitting around:
    - Guys, we can be NOT eaten every 100 years or so by giant squid. We just invented it!!! What are we doing now???
    - How about we invent more ways to be immortal? About 14 will suffice.
    - Yeah, that seems like a good way to spend time...
    - Hey, how about we go immortal first? Y`know, i have a terminal ilness caused by this spear that Winged Guys shoved through me...
    - No, no. We will wait.
    - WHY?!
    - Because we are good sport. That is why. We will blast them into oblivion with our Device- that how honest and righteous we are... We won`t drink blood, or grow fangs, but we can kill basically millions and have no problem with it...

    We can bounce this ball back and forth I`m just a fan of simple solutions. Wait, wrong. A Logicalm abd simple solutions. If they invented a way, and that caused a war- why they didn`t use it on themselves right that instant??? What? More options? Downloadable content? Multi-purpose tools? Half-a-price promotions? What?
    Or, more likely, they were onto something, and that caused Elder God to send his servants? But much like Device, it was never finished? Or even started, to begin with?

    (New idea- both races were going into advanced state- so He-who-name-we-don`t-know-because-he-is-pretensious- decided to wipe them out, and used pretty petty reason. Like faith. We will discuss that later)

    Hylden Lord stated that "thier banishemnt ensures thier immortality"- not some invention of thiers. So immortality came after banishment

    I`m just struggling with this- Hylden look for a way to give a finger to Squiddy. Ok. Seems reason enough to send Black Wings. Big fight. Lots of them dies. Hylden work on thier A-bomb, Ancients on thiers. Ancient finish work first. Hylden go to hell. Happy End... Not quite. Hylden curse (and swear, and call names) thier oponents. God of Ancients goes 3 year old child, that didn`t get ice cream. Ancients, much like parents of said child, decide to kill themselves rather than struggle with this ingrate. Humans step in. And new era begins.

    So if Hylden got thier immortality, or at least tool(vampirism) to do so- why didn`t they use it?

    "They would have to feast on blood". So? You have 2 alternatives(i always thought there is only one alternative. Either option 1 and then alternative, but whatever- i ain`t from english speaking nation): Squiddy eats you, or you eat others. Not really a hard choice i`d say.

    "They had other ways"- ok. And they waited for what to "load" them? Stars aligned? Sunny day? Till thier high priest get rid of her/his headache?

    "They wanted to use vampirism as a weapon"- way to go. Make yor opponents evolve in to stronger, very hard to kill beasts, that would prey on people who put curse on them. It`s like inventing gun that shoots user

    I can`t find logic in it. Even my own ideas seem to me far fetched, but i can`t find logic in anything. So Hylden are in hell, and they put vampirism on Ancients. How? Where did they get idea from? Curse-store around the corner, y`know, just few steps to the left from Horny... Horned Demon? Somebody answer me, please. Find some logical solution

    I came up with: Ancients got rid of threat from Hylden... Wait? Did they? They just basically send them away to a place, where they stew for an eternity, not dying. Elder had to be really proud... "Way to go, you just cut my food supply about 1/3 of previous amount(if we assuje population of humans, hylden and ancient were roughly the same). idiots! I wanted you to KILL THEM, or convert them, but not make them immortal!!! And where did you get this freaking pillars?! They do what?! You are capable of doing such things... Maybe you run out of your usefulness...".

    Hylden get an idea of getting back on Ancients- now they are beyond of Ancient bloodthirst and claws and teeth, so why not? But how did they got it?
    Mass suicide. 99% of the problem solved
    Moebius and Mortanius rebel... And they have to convert other humans to help them(not to mention- where did Moebius got that staff-designed-to-combat-vampires i wonder? Elder God maybe?). But would they rebel, if thier masters were just different race? Wouldn`t petty humans struggle to be one of this powerful, beautiful, capable of flight(one of my childhood dreams), wise beings, of apparently immeasurable strenght and knowlege? Maybe they would if they think that thier masters are bloodthirsty killers. But they still are immortal, pretty, wise, so on... Humans are pretty easily corruptable, as we could see on many occasions, both in games and in life. Bit of killing won`t really sway them away. Unless there is someone who plotted entire time, knowin full well what string to pull and when

    Sorry

    Oh and one more thing- i didn`t want to make 2 posts, so i edit this one- i`d drop this stuff about vampires water-weakness. It is frankly instulting to anyone with a bit of common sense. Blood is mainly water, sweat is mainly water(if someone tried to rip my throat, i`d sweat. A lot. Good luck biting me then), hell, even our body is mainly water- vampires would spontaneous combust- or rather spontaneous dissolve seconds afer turning. What about snow? What about mist?!- one of the Kain abilities. I didn`t know he is suicidal. In other words water-weakness is so stupid that it takes breath away. It`s practicall self eliminating.

    If anything i`d use moving water turning vampires in to ash(or burn them like acid). It`s consistent with vampires legends, wouldn`t change what happened to Raziel- he fell in to moving water after all- and woudn`t lessen Rahabim achivement, since only small portion of waters in Nosgoth are artificial water bodies. And even then we could use them to drown our opponents- we know vampires breathe- look at Kain and Rziel during thier showdown in Avernus- i highly doubt Dumahim or Turelim have swimming lessons, so pushing them in to the water would give slightly different results, but outcome(free yoer soul, demon!) is practically the same.
    Why moving water? As i said, it is stupid about as much as simple water weakness, but consistent with legends- we all know that moving water does possess some kind of energy- look up the underground water ways if you are interested- and can still provide challenge during game
    Last edited by Heretic_13; 11th Jun 2016 at 12:11.

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